A question to "all grain" brewers

Hello all. What kind of beers can only be brewed all grain or at least with a large amount of grain? I am an beginner extract brewer and I don't have a drive to jump into all grain. At least not comparable to the drive I had to get into brewing in general. Thanks.

I may be wrong, but here are the benefits I see to it. #1: its cheaper. #2: you have more control of the beer, ie making it maltier, sweeter, drier etc by controlling the mash temp and variety of grain. #3 its cheaper, and #4, its cheaper.

You can make nearly any broad style of beer you'd want to with extract and steeping a bit of specialty grain- but you can be much more particular with all grain. Very few people regret going to all grain, but there is certainly no reason to do so if you aren't interested, especially with all the new malt extracts available these days.

As mentioned, with extract, and especially partial mashes, there is very little you can't do. Having said that, the jump from "partial" to "all" is a small one. It's how I did. On your next batch of extract, just steep a few ounces or so into your wort of some appropriate to style crushed grain and see for yourself. Once you can do this, and read a thermometer, you can all grain.

Also, did he mention cheaper?

With extracts you do not always know what you are getting. What crystal and how much is in the pale extract. What mix is used in the amber. Etc. You can control the subtleties of the finished product a little more by going AG. It tends to be cheaper as well as you are not paying for the wort to be made and concentrated for you. It is more of a time investment. I will still make some partial mash brews, especially when it is too cold to be outside brewing. You also need more storage space for your grains as you would be buying in bulk, not to mention the up front equipment costs.

In my opinion, it is worth the added time and effort because I feel more connected to my beer, and brewing for me is very zen like. Not to mention the fact that I am retentitive and really enjoy being exacting in my process. It all boils down to what you want to do. Try a partial mash or a 1 Gal AG to experience the process and see if it is what you want to do. If not stick with extracts. Remember. Its your beer. As long as it tastes good to you, and you enjoy it, there is no wrong way to make it.

i feel the comparison is really extract is like baking a batch of brownies with a box mix.. all grain is like making them completely from scratch.. you'll get great products with both, but going all grain will give you more choice, control, and a more variables to control resulting in a better overall experience/product

to answer the question directly, here are some styles that can only be brewed all-grain

rauch bier (50-100% smoked malt in place of base malt)
vienna lagers/ales (50-100% vienna malt)
dunkel (75-100% munich)

mostly german styles came to mind. it is an interesting question. anyone else?

progmac said:

to answer the question directly, here are some styles that can only be brewed all-grain

rauch bier (50-100% smoked malt in place of base malt)
vienna lagers/ales (50-100% vienna malt)
dunkel (75-100% munich)

mostly german styles came to mind. it is an interesting question. anyone else?

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You can make any of those with extract, whether you win awards is a crapshoot. You can get both Vienna and Munich malts in extract. A quick Google found me some peat-smoked extract kits, I would imagine that beechwood smoked is available or easily pulled off. Extracts have changed since I went on my sabbatical and there's a wide variety available. I don't think there's any "taste alike" beers you can't make.

One thing you will never make with extract though is a very pale colored beer such as an American Lager. You might be able to make a taste-alike, but you will not get a taste-alike that is also a look-alike in the lighter colored beers.

Hey nobody said its cheaper

Anything with Oatmeal. Also I know they make extract for basically any type of base grain but they aren't always easy to find(like Vienna). Rye, Munich and even Maris Otter are available through Northern Brewer now. You don't need to go all-grain though. You can always do a partial mash without the need to buy a mash tun and extra pot for all-grain.

Cheap is relative. There are a lot more factors to consider than just money. Time investment being the largest.
"Control" of batch can lead to both good and bad results. Without proper research(time), you can easily come up with many bad beer ideas.
You can brew any beer with today's extracts and steeping grains and be successful.
Kits are a great place to start for a basic solid recipe.
Good Luck
Bull

olz431 said:

I may be wrong, but here are the benefits I see to it. #1: its cheaper. #2: you have more control of the beer, ie making it maltier, sweeter, drier etc by controlling the mash temp and variety of grain. #3 its cheaper, and #4, its cheaper.

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Of course, you mean after you spend for the necessary equipment!! True, equipment can range from reasonable to outrageous.

I am interested to move on to BIAB and this may be better for financial reasons in my case.

For many of us going to All Grain comes down to this:

1. CHEAPER

2. More fun!

3. More rewarding!

4. More control of beer flavor profile

OT - I'm amused how many people are saying 'it is cheeper' and 'more control' but not answering the OP's quesiton... 'What beers are only makeable as all-grain?' which was the question.

I see there are some answers to the question, and answers depends on what you consider 'extract' brewing. I consider anything short of a mash (partial or otherwise) extract. So extract with steeping grains is still extract. As such, I'm still an extract brewer. And except for extreemly pale ales, there seems to be little that can not be made with extract and steeping grains - atleast from what is listed here.

I will agree that the other reasons given - control and cost - can be motivating factors. For me they aren't because of 2 other constraints - time and space. AG typically means more time, which I don't have and more storage space, which I also don't have. That doesn't mean a BIAB doesn't tempt me from time to time. (lowest storage space)

As stated, anything with cereal grains like oatmeal, rice, corn or unmalted rye. The enzymes that you activate during the mash are what is needed to get the flavor an sugars out of these unmalted grains.

You'll also find you can make much lighter colored beers, as extract is usually pretty high on the color charts to begin with.

Finally (and most importantly) freshness. I'd been struggling with off flavors in my beer for years. I'd do a very good batch and then the next two would have that famous 'extract' tang to them. Then I'd do two good batches and the next would have it again. I finally narrowed it down to my supplier of LME. They tapped their extract out of 55g drums, which was fine, except that they didn't sell out that fast so it would oxidize and that's when i'd get off flavors.

Since I've made the switch to all-grain i've made nothing but good batches

Edit: To answer your question more accurately, most pale european lagers, american (BMC type) lagers, any beer with cereal grains as part of the recipe, high gravity pale ale types (extract takes the pale out of the equation, even though the style is right)

progmac said:

to answer the question directly, here are some styles that can only be brewed all-grain

rauch bier (50-100% smoked malt in place of base malt)
vienna lagers/ales (50-100% vienna malt)
dunkel (75-100% munich)

mostly german styles came to mind. it is an interesting question. anyone else?

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I'm pretty sure you can get Munich malt extract.

I'd say the only types of beer that have to be all grain would be the rauchbier, and anything with 100% Vienna malt or another malt that doesn't come in extract.

LBussy said:

One thing you will never make with extract though is a very pale colored beer such as an American Lager.

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Walking_Target said:

You'll also find you can make much lighter colored beers, as extract is usually pretty high on the color charts to begin with.

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Nice work guys - actual answers to the question.

These guys are right on. Even pale DME / LME is darker than beers you can make with all grain. The parallel is fermentability. It's hard to get extremely low FG beers from extract. So, very light color and body beers are harder or impossible with extract.

On the subject of color, I use or plan on using late extract addition to try to lighten the color. Is this method all for naught?

manisfive said:

On the subject of color, I use or plan on using late extract addition to try to lighten the color. Is this method all for naught?

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It will help, but the extract/concentration process darkens the malt so (and I never say never) I think it's fair to say it will never be as light as you can get from all-grain.

LBussy said:

It will help, but the extract/concentration process darkens the malt so (and I never say never) I think it's fair to say it will never be as light as you can get from all-grain.

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Yeah, as they dry the wort to liquid extract it's heated - so the malliard (caramelization) reaction happens. Dry can be done without heat - so it has the potential to be lighter but I still have never managed to make a beer with extract as light in color or as low in FG as I can with all grain.

+1 to the comment about the ability to use unmalted cereal grains. Since I started all-grain brewing I've found that a couple of my favorite recipes are ones that have flaked maize as part of the grain bill (Classic American Pilsner, Cream Ale). Although you can make a great cream ale with extract, the bit of sweetness from the corn really took mine to a new level (others will disagree, I know, but I love it). The CAP wouldn't be possible with extract, given it's pale color and that the traditional grain bill is 6-row and corn.

I'm not knocking on extract though, I brewed extract for about 20 years, and AG just the past couple. You can make fanastic beer and most styles that way.

100% control of your brews. your in control of what goes in.

A friend of mine put it to me like this: You can make beer with extract and it can be really good. All grain is where you begin to craft beer and it can be great.

That sold me.

How much equipment does it take to jump into partial mash brewing?

a grain bag.

manisfive said:

How much equipment does it take to jump into partial mash brewing?

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If you've got a pot big enough to do a few gallons' boil, and a thermometer, you can already do a partial mash. The trick is maintaining temperature, because you'll need to keep whatever your mash temp is (somewhere between 148 and 158 degrees F) for somewhere between 45 and 90 minutes, per the recipe. Some do this by applying heat as the mash cools, some cover the pot and wrap it in a blanket.

If you build or buy a cooler mash tun mash temp control gets lots easier, but it's not necessary. Ditto a big enough pot and heat source to do a full-volume boil, which aids in hop utilization.

But for baseline partial-mash, all you need is what you've probably already got if you're doing extract with steeping grains.

-Rich

manisfive said:

How much equipment does it take to jump into partial mash brewing?

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a bag like you probably already use for steeping and a blanket for insulation. Otherwise you can use the same equipment that you use for extract/ with steeping

I cannot recommend BIAB partial mashing enough. I wish I had learned about it a long time ago! If you want the freedom to use specialty malts than require mashing, then it's really the way to go. The awesome thing is that you can trivially convert any AG recipe into a partial mash.

With a partial mash, you don't need to be quite so precise with your process and temperatures, since the bulk of your fermentable sugars will come from the extract. I do mostly BIAB all grain now, but transitioned via BIAB partial mashes.

Lots of AG brewers will supplement with extract if they're doing a high gravity brew or they don't quite hit their numbers for sugar extraction. I don't think any less of my partial mashes than my AG batches. Partial mashing is 95% of the way to "real" all grain.

manisfive said:

How much equipment does it take to jump into partial mash brewing?

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I did my first partial grain with a kitchen colander. It was NOT perfect, but it prevented me from going out to buy something. That + a thermometer to keep from making a nasty tea. A meat thermometer will work fine for your first time, nearly everyone has one of those.

"Just Do It" and you will fall into your own ideas about what will work. Adding some crystal or other specialties does such good things for most extract recipes that you will wonder why you didn't do it before.

I do gallon batches in my little apartment kitchen, and I have upgraded from a kitchen collander with cheesecloth (secured by high-tech clothespins) to a state of the art chinacap

Not really sure I can agree that it is cheaper. Perhaps I didnt go the cheapest route. The grain is cheaper than extract, but I have put quite a bit of money into equipment.

I'm thinking about getting into grain beers but I have a few questions!
What is the setup you need?
What is the process, and is it time consuming?
I am a farmer can I use my own grain?
Do you get the quality and clarity?
How much does it all cost for the setup and how much money do you save?

sam84 said:

I'm thinking about getting into grain beers but I have a few questions!
What is the setup you need?
What is the process, and is it time consuming?
I am a farmer can I use my own grain?
Do you get the quality and clarity?
How much does it all cost for the setup and how much money do you save?

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You need malted grain because the process of malting makes the grain able to convert from starch to sugars that the yeast can eat but you can mix some malted and some unmalted as I did for a Belgian wit where I took wheat from my bin and milled it with malted barley for the mash.

The minimum setup you need would be a pot big enough for your batch plus boil off plus losses to grain absorbtion, a fine mesh bag for BIAB, and a vessel to ferment in. This assumes you have a way mill the grain or buy grain already milled.

Quality? I don't drink much beer that I haven't brewed because most doesn't meet my standards anymore. People that have sampled my beer think it is really good.

Saving money? Are you crazy??? Most of us brew for the quality of the beer, the variety that you can't usually buy, and just for the fun of it. You can save money but most of us can't resist buying a little more equipment and a little more equipment, and a little more.....

I've probably spent a bit over $200 on equipment to get to where I want but many spend far more than that. A basic kit will cost about $70 plus a kettle big enough to boil the wort. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/brewing-basics-equipment-kit.html I added a turkey fryer to get a 7 1/2 gallon pot and burner for about $60 and a cheap Corona style grain mill because the nearest brew store that has a mill to use is 150 miles away.