BCS vs. PIDs

I wanted to ask what the decision making process was like for those who looked at both options and ultimately went one way or the other. I guess I understand those folks who just copied Kal's awesome design or someone else's but I'm sure some folks looked at the BCS as well as multiple PIDs and really put their functions against each other.

I'll get around to my own design concept and requirements but I wanted to hear why you choose one way or the other.

Some of the basic things I'm hesitant about with the BCS is having to have some client device near the brewery. I don't have an iThing so I guess I'd need a tablet or cheap laptop. It's weird to think I'd have to mess with a computer with wet hands.

BCS is far more flexible. I didn't really consider the PID's all that much. I now have the BCS on a 3 tier and a PID on an indoor BIAB (with a cool sight glass from some guy, his name will come to me ) The BCS allows for a complete and total automation, which unfortunately I never finished because of back limitations on cleaning the 3 Keggle set up.

The only negative with the BCS is the limitation of the Thermistor probes which I find lacking compared to the RTD. The positives far outweigh this IMO, as you can expand and control many devices including your fermentation, you can chart temps. Remote wireless control, you could turn on your electric HLT from work and have it ready to go when you got home. I really never scratched the surface with mine in all the things you can do and since then the device has been upgraded a lot. I also liked the ability to program everything on screen as compared to those little buttons on the PID's.

Subscribed! I am in the process of designing a build for my brew setup and trying to figure out the best route. This thread should give me some good feedback on the BCS which I'm considering vs the brewtroller vs multiple PID's.

are you ruling out other options Bobby?

Brewtroller could be a great option that doesn't require a client or iThingy and really adds flexibility.

the way i see it- the only real difference between standard PID controllers and something like BCS is the user interface. if you like a nice pretty GUI with pictures and buttons, or really want to integrate or automate everything- go with BCS. if you dont care about bells and whistles, or your setup is more basic and you only need something to control a heating element, and a simple $35 PID controller will work just fine.

so- it depends on how many inputs and outputs you want to tie together on one screen. if the answer is one or two, probably use PIDs. if its 5-10 or more, go for some type of hardware interface with BCS/brewtroller software on a computer.

On Layne's electric rig we balanced both options and opted for the BCS. The interface is very nice and gives the operator a lot more power (automation, ramp, PID, temp switch, etc) to work with. It was cost effective when compared with the price of the PIDS and gave more options. Plus you can access it from the internet.

The only downside I see with the BCS is that there is no autotune for the PIDS. That would have been a nice feature.

Also, I always have a comp running during brewday for timers, on the fly calcs and other stuff. So having the interface seemed convenient to me.

Here is a vid of Layne's control system using BCS if you are interested in seeing how I implemented it.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

The only downside I see with the BCS is that there is no autotune for the PIDS. That would have been a nice feature.

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Interesting point, but in reality with my system I quickly figured out that I only needed to set my temps with a slight 1-2F differential and I never needed an auto-tune feature as mine never overshot the temps. Could be I was just lucky. I was actually surprised when I got a PID that such a feature existed and in practice the PID doesn't work nearly as well as the built in PID on the BCS, then again that could just be my set up.

You are correct that the auto tuning seems easier to setup than the reality. Garbage in garbage out is a major part of any tuning. But for someone without an engineering or other pertinent background, manually tuning a PID can be a daunting procedure.

I got the BCS, because I had grand visions of using it as a central control hub for the complete brewing process. I have not got to using it to control my fermentation yet, but will in the future. I found it very flexible and easy to get up and running, as I am NOT an engineer. Also the size is really nice, as compared to a PID. And there are multiple output functionality (manual, PID, duty cycle and hysteresis, One thing I don't like too much are the temperature probes. I have not been able to successfully calibrate them to be better than a +or-1º. But i think I must be doing some thing wrong.

Also setting it up to be controlled wireless was a great connivance factor, and gets your laptop or desktop a good distance from the brewing action. though I'm looking to incorporate and old iPod touch or a cheep tablet to control the brewery.

I think part of it really depends on the level of automation you are looking for. If you just want to set your HLT temp and maybe MLT temp, I don't see why you'd want to get a BCS for that...it's way overkill and more expensive than just buying a couple of PIDs.

All good feedback, thanks. See, I know myself pretty well and I do fear that the concept of the BCS, flexibility and really blingy GUI is going to woo me there without full practical application for all the flexibility.

Still thinking.

Up to this point I had not even considered using a BCS. If I may ask for some clarification from some of you with one - RTD sensors are not compatible with a BCS system? Is this correct? Thanks, not trying to hijack because I want to hear more if I need to make the mental switch before purchasing either a BCS or PIDs.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

On Layne's electric rig we balanced both options and opted for the BCS. The interface is very nice and gives the operator a lot more power (automation, ramp, PID, temp switch, etc) to work with. It was cost effective when compared with the price of the PIDS and gave more options. Plus you can access it from the internet.

The only downside I see with the BCS is that there is no autotune for the PIDS. That would have been a nice feature.

Also, I always have a comp running during brewday for timers, on the fly calcs and other stuff. So having the interface seemed convenient to me.

Here is a vid of Layne's control system using BCS if you are interested in seeing how I implemented it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z21si4QGvnQ&feature=channel_video_title

Click to expand...

That is really slick. I think the only modification I'd be making is the support of an additional element in the HLT and BK that can be exclusively enabled depending on process state. E.g., during strike heating, 9kW in the HLT while the BK has no heating requirement.

In a PID only system, I'd do this with a simple on/on selector. In a hybrid selector/BCS I guess I'd want to have this done in the BCS.

Mr. Shake, I am also looking at brewtroller because I do like the option of having the PID displays in the control panel.

One more thing, data logging is very simple with the BCS, as well as using multiple temperature sensors to control one element. ie I can have a probe in my HTL, my MLT or on the MLT return control the element in the hlt, but still monitor and data log all three independent on which i choose to control the heating element.

BCS uses K-type (two wire) RTD are three wire? there might be a way. you can go to the ECC website and search their forum. Or some one else here might know

Bobby_M said:

Mr. Shake, I am also looking at brewtroller because I do like the option of having the PID displays in the control panel.

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Yea, the PID displays are NICE!! Also be aware that the guys are working on web-based UIs as well as there is some work starting on an Android App to go along with it. None of that is user ready yet though.

Bobby_M said:

Mr. Shake, I am also looking at brewtroller because I do like the option of having the PID displays in the control panel.

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BCS supports the same LED displays as well. I have 3 of them in my wall mounted control panel. When I'm brewing, they show the temp of my HLT, MLT & BK, but the rest of the time they show the temps of my two kegerators and my fermentor. It's a simple software change in the web interface to select what is displayed on each one. It's nice to be able to walk into the garage and see the temps of my refrigeration units without having to look at a web screen.

JonW said:

BCS supports the same LED displays as well.

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Did you buy or build the seven segment LED displays. If so where or how...

Thanks in advance

Found it at the ECC page http://www.oscsys.com/I2C-PID-Display.html

Hmmm I thought brewtroller used the 4x20 LCD displays, not 7-segment displays.

Maybe I am thinking of something else?

EDIT: Oh, I did a google and saw the PID displays for brewtroller are 7-segment.

Now I wonder where I saw those LCDs on someone's system...

weirdboy said:

Hmmm I thought brewtroller used the 4x20 LCD displays, not 7-segment displays.

Maybe I am thinking of something else?

EDIT: Oh, I did a google and saw the PID displays for brewtroller are 7-segment.

Now I wonder where I saw those LCDs on someone's system...

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Yes, BT uses the 4x20 LCD as the primary display and a rotator knob as the selector/input device. They also can use the 7 seg displays.

BCS uses the web interface as the primary display, but can also use the 7 seg displays.

Jeeez... options paralysis.

I built a control panel based of Kal's design. Instead of using PIDs I used a BCS. As an engineer I really enjoy the GUI and the Data Logging. I have a 28" flat panel that I'm in the process of mounting on the wall next to my control panel for brew day. I haven't set it up for fermentation yet, but when I complete my barrel room I'll have it control the temps. Also, you can control any element with any probe .. anyway you config it. You can also setup processes and all kinds of fun stuff. The way I look at it, you get much more for your money going the BCS route.

Just so you know what they look like, below are my temperature displays on the BCS.
Green temps are setpoints, red temps are actual temperature.

JonW said:

Just so you know what they look like, below are my temperature displays on the BCS.
Green temps are setpoints, red temps are actual temperature.

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Jon,

How do you interface the 7 segment displays to the BCS? I'd like to do one for my fermenter, as the BCS controls it and I don't want to have the computer running all of the time just to monitor things.

I purchased an Auber PID from another HBT member because I'm doing a single vessel build and would like to keep things portable/simple to start. That being said I can see myself moving to a BCS in the future to control everything in the brewery, I just can't stop tinkering with things for some reason!

agreed. I think I was just BCS converted!

ChuckO said:

Jon,

How do you interface the 7 segment displays to the BCS? I'd like to do one for my fermenter, as the BCS controls it and I don't want to have the computer running all of the time just to monitor things.

Click to expand...

They are supported natively in the latest firmware update. You hook them to a power supply and connect them into the expansion port of the BCS.

Here's a short page in the wiki on them: http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=External_7-Segment_Display

JonW said:

They are supported natively in the latest firmware update. You hook them to a power supply and connect them into the expansion port of the BCS.

Here's a short page in the wiki on them: http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=External_7-Segment_Display

Click to expand...

Thanks Jon,

Didn't see that when I last looked through the wiki.

JonW said:

They are supported natively in the latest firmware update. You hook them to a power supply and connect them into the expansion port of the BCS.

Here's a short page in the wiki on them: http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=External_7-Segment_Display

Click to expand...

Jon, just to clarify are all the displays multiplexed on the same port and addressed individually, or are you using a port for each one?

EDIT: nevermind I see looking at the wiki that there is only the one port. So, I guess you set the address for each display to be unique, then code in those addresses in the config? To be honest I am a lower-level kind of guy so I don't really have a firm grasp on what is directly accessible in the BCS firmware, and what is not. Like, if I wanted to just create a custom device and make a driver for it, is that easy to do with a BCS?

So, I guess you set the address for each display to be unique, then code in those addresses in the config?

Click to expand...

essentially yes. they run off of an I2C bus, which is similar to any other data bus (like RS232, RS485, 1-wire, etc). I2C happens to use two wires for communication, so as long as you have a controller that supports I2C, you just need to hook up the 'SDA' and 'SCL' (and power and ground) connectors coming from the back of the LCD screen to the controller. the rest is software. in the manual linked on that page, it tells you how to find or set the unique hardware address for each module. you use that address in the software to identify which display you want.

I2C can be daisy chained, so if you have 8 of those LCD screens, you just connect all the SDA lines together, and all the SCL lines together, and then run them back to the controller. so regardless of the number of displays you have, you only need two data wires and power and ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I²C

Bobby_M said:

Jeeez... options paralysis.

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LOL!!! No Doubt!! And any way you go, there's plenty of people to help!

TravelingBrewer22 said:

agreed. I think I was just BCS converted!

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and no one has even put the HMI on here yet... (Human - Machine Interface)

the default HMI has a graphic and round widgets. The widgets are activated by inputs/outputs/registers/states:
http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=HMI_Builder

You create a custom background image and modify the javascript file containing 'custom widgets' and host those two files on a server.. the widgets can be lines, text, basically anythgng you can do with HTML5

here is one of my early customizations, everything red is a widget and activated by the BCS being in a 'state'

wow, the PIDs are simple but the BCS has a ton more options. How hard is it to learn to program all the settings do you need plc/ladder logic experience or is it pretty easy to learn?

There are quite a few examples online. I've only started to dabble in programming a multi step mash. I don't have electric valves, so I can't do too much automation. Unfortunately I feel like the learning curve is a little high, but shouldn't be too bad once you get past the initial "stepping foot in water" phase. My one complaint about the BCS is that the documentation on the site isn't very good. Seems like its getting better, but still very lacking in my opinion. You'll find more info by consulting google than by going on the BCS website.

Forgot to mention, BCS has awesome customer support. I've never used them, but have seen many many examples where they have gone out of their way to help their customers out.

jusware said:

Forgot to mention, BCS has awesome customer support. I've never used them, but have seen many many examples where they have gone out of their way to help their customers out.

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Big +1 on this.

Bobby you order yours yet

jusware said:

There are quite a few examples online. I've only started to dabble in programming a multi step mash. I don't have electric valves, so I can't do too much automation. Unfortunately I feel like the learning curve is a little high, but shouldn't be too bad once you get past the initial "stepping foot in water" phase. My one complaint about the BCS is that the documentation on the site isn't very good. Seems like its getting better, but still very lacking in my opinion. You'll find more info by consulting google than by going on the BCS website.

Forgot to mention, BCS has awesome customer support. I've never used them, but have seen many many examples where they have gone out of their way to help their customers out.

Click to expand...

The online Wiki gives decent basic info, but each system is setup uniquely, so I can see where that causes the info to be real generic.

The online user forum is very supportive and will answer any questions people have.

I have PIDs similar to Kal's setup. At the time of purchase, I heavily debated BCS vs. PIDs. I was convinced (and still am) that BCS is superior, but I found some PIDs at my local used electronics parts store for very cheap. I went with saving money! When I build my commercial brewery, I will definitely use a BCS or equivalent thereof.

Bsquared said:

Big +1 on this.

Bobby you order yours yet

Click to expand...

+1

Excellent support, feature addition, and warranty service

Haven't ordered yet. I tend to spend a lot more time thinking about what I want to do than I should.

I was actually already thinking about setting up a PC workstation in the garage for label printing and vinyl cutting but I think with the BCS I'd want to have large flat panel that I could also watch TV on.

Does anyone know what happens if you're logging into the BCS GUI page from two clients at the same time? Can it be done? It would be cool to have it open on a static big screen but also be able to control from a tablet or netbook.

Yes, I view the webpage from the PC (a separate main and data log tab) and also my iPhone... we need someone to write a 'vizio internet app' to display what the BCS is doing, that way you do not need a complete PC workstation ;-)