I've had same off flavor with first 3 brews, thinking of using secondary?

Hi all,

I've brewed 4 different batches of brews so far, all partial mash, and each time I feel like I can taste a distinct flavor, even though they were all different beers (brown ale, cream ale, bavarian hef, and a holiday spiced ale). I can't tell what this off flavor is, as I am new to homebrewing, but its a distinct sort of fruitiness/spice perhaps?? I typically brew and leave in primary for 4 weeks, then straight to bottling bucket and bottle. I am wondering if the off flavor is from the beer sitting on the yeast the whole time. I want to correct this (or attempt to) so thinking of using a secondary (glass carboy) this time. I also plan on dry hopping. It's been in primary for a week, and has reached final gravity (at least what the IPA kit I bought said should be FG of 1.019)

Think this is a good idea? Might work? Give it a shot?

One more question, if I do this, my primary has a spigot, but when I went to check FG some trub/yeast (a fair amount) came out with the beer. Should I use a racking cane instead of spigot? Any tricks to getting as much beer out without grabbing the funky stuff?

Thanks!!

Two theories: 1-beer is green; 2-fermenting too warm.

What is your fermentation temp?

How long in primary?

How long in bottle?

Sitting on the yeast shouldn't be the problem, I think the 4 week primary is a keeper and I've stopped doing secondary unless I'm doing a really light style beer. I've only done extract and partial mash and before I moved to PM I remember the beer having a little twang to it. For me that changed when I went to a longer primary (which you are doing) and more late addition for the extracts. Sanitation is always something to look at, fermentation temps, yeast strains were different I'm assuming? Try taking a bottle to your local brew shop, they guys at my store are really good at helping with off flavors. Also I'd say use a siphon for transferring to your secondary though. It's worth a shot with secondary though.

hitransplant said:

two theories: 1-beer is green; 2-fermenting too warm.

What is your fermentation temp?

How long in primary?

How long in bottle?

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+2

HItransplant said:

Two theories: 1-beer is green; 2-fermenting too warm.

What is your fermentation temp?

How long in primary?

How long in bottle?

Click to expand...

Beer is green meaning it needed more time in primary? Each time I let them stay in primary for 4 weeks, and bottles for 3 weeks. I don't have a temperature regulator so I just let it do it's thing with whatever weather we're having here in southern Ca. But I think it's usually around 70 degrees for fermentation. To be honest though it could be anywhere from 65 to 73.

markiemark said:

Beer is green meaning it needed more time in primary? Each time I let them stay in primary for 4 weeks, and bottles for 3 weeks. I don't have a temperature regulator so I just let it do it's thing with whatever weather we're having here in southern Ca. But I think it's usually around 70 degrees for fermentation. To be honest though it could be anywhere from 65 to 73.

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Your fermentation temp could be your biggest issue for your off flavors. Have you been using DME of LME?

D_Ranged_Eskimo said:

Your fermentation temp could be your biggest issue for your off flavors. Have you been using DME of LME?

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Um the recipe called for 8lbs pale malt extract, it was thick and molasses like. Is that LME? the grains used for the partial mash were 1lb crystal malt, .5 pound honey malt, .5 pound biscuit malt. Also used white labs yeast california ale.

And yes all the yeasts have been different strains

The fermentation process can increase the temperature of the beer as much as 5 or 6 degrees above the air temperature of your room. You really ought to work on temperature control, monitoring the actual temperature of the beer. I use the Son of Fermentation Chiller and a thermometer that sticks to the fermentor.

Minky said:

The fermentation process can increase the temperature of the beer as much as 5 or 6 degrees above the air temperature of your room. You really ought to work on temperature control, monitoring the actual temperature of the beer. I use the Son of Fermentation Chiller and a thermometer that sticks to the fermentor.

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So does the thermometer stick to the outside of the bucket like a sticker, sort of like those ones I had back in the day for my fish tank?

What about your water? DO you know if your water has any Chlorine or Chloramine in it?

If I were you, I'd also drop that temp down to 62-65. You can use a "swamp cooler" to hit those temps. Google search. I don't think 70 ambient is terrible for that yeast, but I think you'll get a cleaner flavor dropping more if you can.

There is nothing wrong with keeping your beer on the yeast for 4 weeks, and bottling for 3. That still might make the beer "green", but it depends on the style. I don't think it would for your recipe, though. That should be fine.

What do you use for sanitizer? I highly recommend StarSan, or even Iodophor.

One other thought: You say your bucket has a spigot. Do you take it apart and clean each piece by hand, then sanitize before putting back together? You really need to do this directly after you empty the fermenter or bottling bucket. That spigot is an excellent place for bacteria to grow. Simply draining some hot water or sanitizer through it won't get all it clean enough. Trust me.

Don't worry, your problem is easily solved once you figure out what it is.

markiemark said:

So does the thermometer stick to the outside of the bucket like a sticker, sort of like those ones I had back in the day for my fish tank?

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You got it only on my 4th batch but that made a big difference in my off flavors is just watching my temps and controlling if need be

markiemark said:

So does the thermometer stick to the outside of the bucket like a sticker, sort of like those ones I had back in the day for my fish tank?

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Yup that is it! Just realize that as minky said the thermometer just reads what the outer layer of the fermeting beer is but is is a good way to get a "general" idea of the temp.

Dry Malt Extract is powdered and Liquid Malt Extract is syrup (like molasses). I gotta agree with the higher ferment temp theory. I have always used 4+ week primaries and never had any issues with off flavors from the yeast.
IMHO the only reason for a "secondary" is to use fruit or dryhop or for lagering.

Good luck

Change from Liquid extract to Dry, I think I remember that making a considerable difference in my brews.

Hophead75 said:

Change from Liquid extract to Dry, I think I remember that making a considerable difference in my brews.

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I had read in an article that as LME ages it will pick up that "twangy" flavor most extract brewers are familiar with, and that DME is not apt to do that. So make sure, if you're using LME, that it is fresh.

'Green' beer means newly bottled and not yet conditioned and mellowed in the bottles. Once bottled, the beer should be left in room temp for a few weeks for the flavours to be at their best. Too soon, beer is like a green banana - meaning not ready yet and not-so-good.

Minky said:

I had read in an article that as LME ages it will pick up that "twangy" flavor most extract brewers are familiar with, and that DME is not apt to do that. So make sure, if you're using LME, that it is fresh.

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I certainly have had better luck with DME than LME so far as "twang" is concerned.

Also if you replace the LME with DME, it is important to change the quantities appropriately. I think the ratio is something like 5 lbs LME == 4 lbs DME, but don't shoot me if that's incorrect.


However given the description of "fruity" or "spicy" in the OP, my guess is fermentation issues. A swamp cooler (do a search here on HBT) will help solve this problem and costs almost nothing.

weirdboy said:

Also if you replace the LME with DME, it is important to change the quantities appropriately. I think the ratio is something like 5 lbs LME == 4 lbs DME, but don't shoot me if that's incorrect.

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BANG.

Just kidding. I think you're right.

I'd say fermentation temperature is your issue. Try a swamp cooler...you would be surprised how effective something so simple and cheap can be.

Ferm temp control is one of, if not the most important variable

Indeed. The off flavors from high temps can be as offensive as fusel alcohols, and as subtle as hints of banana (your fruit taste?) and clove (your spice taste?). If you really want to nail it down, I would recommend only changing one variable at a time. For such a relatively easy troubleshoot, temp control is definitely where I would start. You can make a swamp cooler out of things you have at home, so it costs you nothing. Then, if you still notice something off, you can look at the DME vs LME question.

djfriesen said:

Indeed. The off flavors from high temps can be as offensive as fusel alcohols, and as subtle as hints of banana (your fruit taste?) and clove (your spice taste?). If you really want to nail it down, I would recommend only changing one variable at a time. For such a relatively easy troubleshoot, temp control is definitely where I would start. You can make a swamp cooler out of things you have at home, so it costs you nothing. Then, if you still notice something off, you can look at the DME vs LME question.

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Sound advice. Start with your ferm temps, and brew one of the 4 kits you have tried again, this way you can compare the new batch with adjusted ferm temps to the original beer you brewed with fruit and spice flavor issues.