Consistently Contaminated Beer

Hi all:

Was wondering if anyone could lend some advice....I have been brewing successfully for a few years and recently moved to a new house where the water is very hard and has a pH of 7.8. Every beer I have brewed here in the new house becomes contaminated after primary fermentation. I use distilled water for my extract kits and everything is fine until I move to secondary fermentation and then there is a strange taste or smell-from a mild off taste to something that tastes like feet or cheese I have replaced my tubing and use Star San for sanitation.

Has anyone experienced anything like this or have any advice? Thanks

mark

what are you using for your secondary? assuming it is an infection replace all plastic parts. you may have a scratch somewhere that the infection is hiding in.

Hi:

I am using a plastic buckets for primary and glass carboys for secondary. The issues is that it happens with every bucket (I have 3 different buckets). Thanks

I'd start by replacing all the buckets. "Feet" could be a strain of Brettanomyces or Pediococus.

Thanks for the $.02 - there is a slight caveat to this puzzle. I had a local brewery brew 2 batches of a Dunkelweizen that I used my primary and secondary containers and it turned out fine. So, does that rule out the buckets being bad and if the buckets are scratched, wouldn't a sanitizer clean it? Thanks!

Bacteria can "hide" in scratch and hard to reach places. I would change your plastic materials to get new ones.

Or stop doing secondary, if the infection happen there. A lot of people here stopped doing secondary (unless they are doing fruit beers, dry hoping, etc.). But, this is just avoiding the problem.

Can infection get into the glass carboy in secondary. I notice the problem after primary. Thanks.

Infection can happen anywhere where there is bacteria. It won't "get into" plastic or glass if it's not already in there when you seal it up.

I think Erythro makes a good point: try fermenting without a secondary vessel and see how it turns out. That could give you a clue as to whether the infection is happening in primary and just taking a little while to show itself or during the racking/secondary.

If you get good results from your primary, and you are convinced your secondary is thoroughly clean and sanitized, I would suspect something in your racking process (maybe a scratched plastic cane?) as a source.

Also, are you sure its an infection as opposed to some sort of serious off flavors? Did you use distilled water before you moved to the new house? Fermentation temps? Try to think of everything about your process that has changed since the move and start playing with the one by one to figure out the source of the problem.

Hi Red Glass - thanks for the words of wisdom!

It seems to be a primary fermentation issue b/c I notice it in primary only. How would I know the difference between "off" flavors as opposed to an infection?

I did use distilled water prior to the new house and my fermentation temperatures are usually around 70-75 degrees. Unfortunately, the only thing that has changed is the move to the house and the water. I did speak to the makers of Star San who said that Iodine sanitizers do not work with water that has a pH over 7.5 (my initial batch I used Iodine), so I quickly changed to the chemical based Star San. Thanks

you know i just thought of something we may be missing. what if the infection is hiding in the racking cane? you said that you used different buckets and got the same infection. do you use the same racking cane for each batch? unless you have somehow scratched the inside of the carboy or don't clean with something like PBW or Oxyclean BEFORE you sanitize i don't think its the glass carboy. like others have said it could be your bucket thats infected and it just doesn't show till it has set in your carboy for a few weeks.

Hi:

Just to clarify, it happens after a week in a plastic bucket in primary fermentation, but only with beer I brew I had a friend brew beer at a local primary and I put it in my buckets and carboys and it was fine. With that in mind, that is why I am baffled

Thanks

TipsyDragon said:

you know i just thought of something we may be missing. what if the infection is hiding in the racking cane? you said that you used different buckets and got the same infection. do you use the same racking cane for each batch?

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+1 This was my first thought as well - either the racking cane or more likely the tubing attached to it. I'd bet that you're picking up the infection during transfer.

But, with the beer that was professionally brewed, I used the racking cane and put it in a glass carboy in secondary with no problems — let the conundrum begin

In all seriousness, I am baffled by this. Thanks

You've never seen growth on top of the beer in secondary? It's just a smell/taste?

I had a nasty bout with a series of infected beers last year. Heres how I beat it:

1) Replace all plastic hoses, buckets, spoons, etc... ANYTHING PLASTIC THAT TOUCHES THE BEER MUST GO!!! It can't be trusted in my opinion. Of course, you don't have to throw them away just repurpose them (use the buckets for car washing or something). I recommend not getting anymore buckets. Just get a better bottle or use only your glass carboy with no secondary. Clean all your new plastic with a PBW soak and then starsan before use.

2) For glass carboys: clean by soaking overnight filled with PBW then brushing. Rinse well. Then, sanitize all glass carboys by soaking overnight in a bleach solution (filled tip top to the mouth rim). Then rinse thoroughly three or four times. I use Starsan normally but in the case of an infection, I think its good to resort to bleach. Nuke 'em. Finally, on brew day, sanitize with a no rinse sanitizer (starsan) before racking your beer into the carboy. One trick for rinsing the chlorine/bleach out is to rinse a few times, then fill with water the final time and add a crushed campden tablet. I've heard it can help dissipate the chlorine.

I store my cleaned carboys with foil over the mouths so dust doesn't draft in while they are stored. Then on brew day I know they are clean and I just Starsan them.

3) Metal: Soak all possible metal parts overnight in PBW. Brush/wipe clean and rinse well. If possible, boil all metal (spoons, valves, spigots, etc...) parts for 15 mins to sanitize. Sanitize with starsan just before use.

After you have cleaned house as outlined above, brew an extract beer. Always keep a 5 gallon bucket of starsan and a spray bottle at your side. On brewday minimize the number of things that touch the beer. Turn off any fans. Keep the cooling/cooled wort covered. Carefully Clean and sanitize your racking tubing and autosiphon. Only do a primary in your glass carboy. No secondary. When fermenting, don't open the beer and muck with it (taste smell, samples etc...) . When you take hydrometer samples don't put them back into the carboy (some people actually do this). When you bottle clean and sanitize everything again like a madman. Once you beat the infection and make a non-infected beer again, you will get back in a routine and it won't be so much work, but until then its war.


Good luck.

I have also heard the argument that if there is a scratch in your bucket that wort can get to why can't the sanitizer get in there to kill of any baddies? I have had the same two buckets for a year and a half now and have been somewhat careful to not scratch them. I only use them for beer, and I brew every other week.

I do fill my buckets with an iodine/water mix and let them hang out for a couple of hours on brew day. That might be taking care of things. I've seen folks who only spray down their equipment, or give it the barest of 1-2 minute soaks.

Melortz: If you aren't already taking taking notes while you brew, start. Note all sanitation steps and temperatures. I thought I had an infection when it turned out that I was heating my sparge water to 185F and causing tannin extraction. It took my experienced friend five minutes to find the problem and my beer has tasted even more amazing since.

drat said:

You've never seen growth on top of the beer in secondary? It's just a smell/taste?

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+1. This is definitely the right question to be asking at this point.

Melortz: can you give us some more detail about what you smell/taste/see in an infected batch? Have you bottled the infected batches and let them age a bit or did you dump them? If you've bottled some, what was the taste like after a few weeks or months? Did you ever see anything unusual growing on the top of your beer (keep in mind that healthy fermentations have varied looks, but a bacterial growth looks entirely out of place and often very nasty)?

If you fermented someone else's brew in your equipment and used the same process, I think these may be off flavors rather than an infection. Answers to those questions will be helpful for that hunch.

HI all:

I've never seen abnormal growth in the top of my beer in secondary, just the odd smell/taste. I did replace all my hoses and cane and still had the same issues, but not with a professionally brewed beer (brewed for my beer club at a local brewery-we just put in our buckets). That is where I am confused my home brew is an issue in the brewing/wort process. At least I think so

o0weno said:

I have also heard the argument that if there is a scratch in your bucket that wort can get to why can't the sanitizer get in there to kill of any baddies?

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Sanitizer is ineffective against solid particles. That's why you have to clean before your sanitize. So if there is a scratch and some dirt or grime in the scratch (even if not visible to the eye), the sanitizer will get in there but be ineffective.

I'll respond below in CAPS - THANKS!

Melortz: can you give us some more detail about what you smell/taste/see in an infected batch?

IT IS A OFF TASTE SIMILAR TO BAD PUMPKIN - WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE IT IS Acetaldehyde.


Have you bottled the infected batches and let them age a bit or did you dump them? If you've bottled some, what was the taste like after a few weeks or months?

I KEG AND HAVE LETIT AGE, BUT I HAD PROFESSIONAL BREWER TASTE AND THEY AGREED IT WAS BAD.

Did you ever see anything unusual growing on the top of your beer (keep in mind that healthy fermentations have varied looks, but a bacterial growth looks entirely out of place and often very nasty)?

IT DID NOT APPEAR ABNORMAL

If you fermented someone else's brew in your equipment and used the same process, I think these may be off flavors rather than an infection. Answers to those questions will be helpful for that hunch.

PERHAPS, BUT WHAT WOULD I BE DOING WRONG IN MY BREWING PROCESS? THANKS

melortz said:

Hi:

Just to clarify, it happens after a week in a plastic bucket in primary fermentation, but only with beer I brew I had a friend brew beer at a local primary and I put it in my buckets and carboys and it was fine. With that in mind, that is why I am baffled

Thanks

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You should look into your sanitation practices post boil. Is everything touching the cooled wort sanitized? How do you cool and transfer from the boil kettle to fermentor?

As far as I know everything is sanitized.... as I have been brewing successfully for a few years and just started having this problem when I moved into a new house. I use a copper wort chiller (that I sanitize prior to putting in the boiling wort) and then transfer the wort from the kettle to a sanitized bucket.

melortz said:

IT IS A OFF TASTE SIMILAR TO BAD PUMPKIN - WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE IT IS Acetaldehyde.

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Acetaldehyde is typically an off-flavor resulting from young/"green" beer and not an infection.

I KEG AND HAVE LETIT AGE, BUT I HAD PROFESSIONAL BREWER TASTE AND THEY AGREED IT WAS BAD.

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Did the brewer tell you anything about what he was tasting? Hopefully he was more specific than "this is bad, try again"...


How quickly are you racking from primary to secondary? You might be moving through each stage too quickly. I'd suggest skipping the secondary for your next brew. Just put it in the primary, wait a month, then keg and see how it comes out.

The brewer thought it was due to a mistake I made with higher fermenting temperatures. One day my beer was close to 85 degrees and it was a Dunkel. I let my beer stay a week in primary and 2 weeks in secondary.

The issues is I have brewed for a few years with no problems until I moved into my new house. Thanks

How many batches have you brewed at the new house that have turned out with this taste? Did they all get the high fermentation temp? Did the club brew that you fermented get to a similar temp during fermentation?

Fermentation temp control can make a BIG difference in the final product. Especially if you've been fermenting in summer temps with this result. Try searching the forum for a swamp cooler or ice baths for ideas on how to control temps cheaply.

HI:

I have brewed 6 batches and one was at the high temp, all the rest were normal. I did make a swamp cooler for my last batch and it keep right around 70 degrees, but it does have an off flavor. Thanks

I think it's probably a process issue and not an infection. Are you getting ingredients from a new place? Maybe their extracts are old or different from what you were using before.

It sounds like you have access to some knowledge people. I'd say brew with them and let them help you figure it out. I think it's probably just going to be something that you have to troubleshoot one part of your process at a time.

RedGlass said:

Sanitizer is ineffective against solid particles. That's why you have to clean before your sanitize. So if there is a scratch and some dirt or grime in the scratch (even if not visible to the eye), the sanitizer will get in there but be ineffective.

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That's why I hit my buckets with a hot PBW saok. I'm thinking that folks who have bad buckets might be using them for hauling garden debris or using them as tool storage. A gently treated bucket will last a long time.

The trouble seems to be early in your brew process rather than at the stage of secondary. I submit your own evidence that you had two batches of Dunkel mashed, boiled and primary (?) fermented somewhere else and it seemed to do fine in your secondary to bottling part of the chain.
The weak link is somewhere early on.
Could it be an infection - yeah could be. Bugs like Bret inahbit the wort and start to grow slowly and produce their off products - when those bugs/products finally hit threshold, thats when you can detect them.

Maybe run a kit batch of a light flavour beer like a pale ale from a kit, in your primary bucket only, no other transfers and see if this takes on the bad beer character.

Giligson

Thanks for the info - I just tried your advice and brewed an American Wheat a few weeks ago and came up with the same off flavors. Any thoughts? Thanks

As mentioned above, I think some more elaborate tasting notes on the off taste could help in our cyber-diagnosis...

Some of the things I noticed when I moved into a new house in regard to my brewing:

- More stable fermentation temperatures at the new house resulted in more consistent beers.
- Harder water resulted in that indescribable "homebrew" taste, which was fixed with a good water filtration system
- Brewing outside in Jersey resulted in having to keep the lid partially on during the boil (lousy bugs). No DMS vegetable flavors yet, but it's high on my list of concerns

Give us the exact tastes you are getting and elaborate more on when in the process you're getting them.

And IMO, 1-week in primary is not enough time. I'm sure others will help me elaborate more on that...

Drat:

I am brewing extract so I am using distilled water — with that in mind, the water shouldn't be an issue right?

The taste is hard to describe, but consistent It's somewhat astringent.

Thanks

You said you use an immersion chiller, any chance water from the chiller is dripping into your brew while it's cooling? Sometime a little drip isn't very obvious. You could be introducing all kinds of things from the water if that's occurring. It may not have been a problem with your old tap water source, but perhaps this is the new house variable you're looking for.

THought about that, but I only immersed the bucket about halfway in the chiller. Thanks for the idea/suggestion.

What??? I understood you were using a copper coil immersion chiller to cool the wort which you were putting in the wort to sanitize before kicking on the chilling water. What I'm suggesting is that you check the fittings where the water is entering and exiting the chiller to see if you have any small leaks that are running down the arms of the chiller and into your nice wort. How far immersed the chiller is wouldn't matter if you have a leak. If the water is heavily chlorinated, just a little bit will cause some really horrible off flavors. Or, if there is bacteria or wild yeast in the water that would also be a potential source of problem.

If you're doing something different to chill, then disregard my suggestion.

LOL - I misunderstood what you wrote It appears with my chiller that the connections are on the outside of the brew kettle, but perhaps something could be running into the wort. I haven't thought about that or perhaps a leak in the copper once it is immersed? Hrmmmm. Thanks for the idea.

melortz said:

Drat:

I am brewing extract so I am using distilled water — with that in mind, the water shouldn't be an issue right?

The taste is hard to describe, but consistent It's somewhat astringent.

Thanks

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Have you switched to distilled water recently?

You might want to change it up to spring water or even just another brand of distilled water.

It's worth a shot.

I've always used the same brand. I thought that I needed to use distilled water with extract beer kits. Yes/No? Thanks.

[didn't read whole thread]
are you running beer through the spigots in your bucket (if there are any)?
For a while when I started I did not know they come off!
totally gross stuff was caught in there, even though i "flushed it" out with hot water, oxy + sanitizer.
now I disassemble it each time.
good luck.

Yup tried that too Thanks anyway!