Should we be racking? If so, when?

I think that we are told by generic wisdom that letting a cider sit to long in primary risks imbuing cider with the taste of dead yeast.

That being said, I have recently heard of several recipes that call for up to four weeks in primary fermentation, some omitting secondary altogether.

What do you guys think? When should we be racking the cider off of the yeast, if we should do so at all?

I personally think that the fears of off flavors as a result of sitting on the lees are overblown. Some ciders and wines sit on the lees for months at a time and come out great. This practice may have en effect on the product, but I have yet to see any proven negative outcome. By comparison, four weeks is a short period.

I like to rack once the primary fermentation starts to slow, but before it stops completely. This gets the heavy lees out of the picture, while allowing the remaining fermentation to form a protective CO2 layer on top of the cider for aging. Others rack off any time the lees get above 1/2 inch regardless of the stage the cider is in.

I just racked to secondary with a batch I had use champagne yeast with, at about 9 days in I had no activity in the airlock. I'm assuming the yeast is done, so wouldn't it make since at that point to transfer? Would there be any benefits of leaving it on the yeast any longer?

bigego236 said:

I just racked to secondary with a batch I had use champagne yeast with, at about 9 days in I had no activity in the airlock. I'm assuming the yeast is done, so wouldn't it make since at that point to transfer? Would there be any benefits of leaving it on the yeast any longer?

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No. There are no advantages to leaving the cider on spent yeast.

bigego236 said:

I just racked to secondary with a batch I had use champagne yeast with, at about 9 days in I had no activity in the airlock. I'm assuming the yeast is done, so wouldn't it make since at that point to transfer? Would there be any benefits of leaving it on the yeast any longer?

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If it's done I doubt there is any benefit but ask LeBreton AKA LeBadassBrewer

bigego236 said:

I just racked to secondary with a batch I had use champagne yeast with, at about 9 days in I had no activity in the airlock. I'm assuming the yeast is done, so wouldn't it make since at that point to transfer? Would there be any benefits of leaving it on the yeast any longer?

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There are some styles of wine that call for sitting on the yeast for quite some time. The yeast is stirred up daily for a few months to suspend it throughout the wine. This is called a SurLee (sp?) method. Why do it? It imparts more body and a creamy texture/mouthfeel.

Now, that may not be things that enhance a CIDER. But I did want to chime in and say that the yeast CAN play a part 'post fermentation'. Hope this gives you more info so that you can make a better choice on what you want to do with your brew!

Well, I just racked my cider to secondary after two and a half weeks. It was still bubbling pretty regularly too, but the lees were really building up. S.G. was down to 1.020 from 1.060. It's still bubbling a bit in secondary though. I'll let you guys know in a month how it turns out.

(Thumbs up)

LeBreton said:

I like to rack once the primary fermentation starts to slow, but before it stops completely. This gets the heavy lees out of the picture, while allowing the remaining fermentation to form a protective CO2 layer on top of the cider for aging.

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I couldn't agree more. I think this is solid advice and the method I use.

Ok, I think I'm setting myself up for a scolding here, but I need advice with a variation on the same question:

I have cider that has been in primary for a month and a half. Airlock activity has almost stopped. I can't see how deep the lees are, as the 55 gal. poly drum isn't transparent. I assume it's on a fair amount of lees. I am afraid that if I rack to secondary now, there won't be enough sugar and/or nutrients for the yeast to generate enough CO2 to protect it. (I don't have a gravity reading because I'm afraid to open it at this point.)

Here's my problem: normally I would just bottle at this point, but I'm leaving on a trip in a couple days and probably won't have time to bottle until I get back. Aside from yeast autolysis, what risk do I face in leaving it in primary for another three weeks? If I did that, it would bring it to almost three months total in primary, sitting on a big cake of lees the whole time.

If this is a terrible idea, I could bottle most of it right now, but I wouldn't have the chance to backsweeten and then pasteurize. So I would be bottling dry. (Again, I assume it's dry, based on airlock activity, but haven't actually taken a gravity reading)

So, to recap, three options:

1) do nothing, leave it on the lees for another three weeks
2) rack to secondary, risk not having enough fermentation to fill headspace with CO2
3) bottle now

Thanks for any help.

ShadyHoller said:

So, to recap, three options:

1) do nothing, leave it on the lees for another three weeks
2) rack to secondary, risk not having enough fermentation to fill headspace with CO2
3) bottle now

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4) Rack to secondary, on top of more unfermented juice. This lets you leave lees behind and will replace any volume loss, minimize headspace, and allow for a little more fermentation to make some CO2. Come back in three weeks and deal with it then.

ShadyHoller said:

So, to recap, three options:

1) do nothing, leave it on the lees for another three weeks
2) rack to secondary, risk not having enough fermentation to fill headspace with CO2
3) bottle now

Thanks for any help.

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Just as LeBadass said.. Go to secondary and add some juice.... I'm pretty sure you'll get a brand-new shining Holiday cap of CO2!

thank you. excellent suggestion. Any thoughts on how much juice would be needed to get it kicking again? I have 40 gallons in a 55 gallon jug (yes, too much headspace, I know, but that's just kind of where I found myself at the end of pressing day.)

Any thoughts on a handful of un-sulfured raisins? I heard they were an old-timer's trick for adding nutrients to get some more fermentation out of the juice.

If you have 40 gallons now, we can estimate around 37/38 post racking. If it's going into a 55 gallon container you're looking at trouble if it's gonna be 3 weeks with that much headspace. 10 gallons would probably be safe, 5 could be on the edge, or some combination of juice and sugar.

Depending on juice availability you may actually be better off waiting.

LeBreton said:

If you have 40 gallons now, we can estimate around 37/38 post racking. If it's going into a 55 gallon container you're looking at trouble if it's gonna be 3 weeks with that much headspace. 10 gallons would probably be safe, 5 could be on the edge, or some combination of juice and sugar.

Depending on juice availability you may actually be better off waiting.

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Wait! That's bad advice, I have better.....
Since you'll be gone for a while Just tell me where you live, Leave me one of those huge oversized straws.... I'll take care of it!
HAHAHAHA
MARRY CHRISTMAS

So if you guys would like to know, I just bottled that cider I was talking about. Here's the post-report:

My brew of a gallon of cider, 1/4 cup of brown sugar, and 1 oz. of Nottingham Ale Yeast sat in primary for 17 days, going from an s.g. of 1.060 to 1.020. At this point it was still bubbling regularly, although it had slowed. I racked to secondary, where it sat for 22 more days and reached an s.g. of 1.014, giving a final ABV between 6 and 7%. I bottled still and dry when it appeared that all bubbling activity in the airlock had ceased, although the small amounts of pressure released from bottles indicate that some tiny amount of activity is still occurring. The cider is mellow, pleasantly fruity, and overall quite delicious.

Very pleased with a first brew!

I keep hearing good things about Nottingham, thanks for the feedback!

In case anyone is ever searching these pages in the future with a similar question to the one I asked above, here are the results:

(to recap, I had 45gal. of cider in a 55gal. poly barrel fermenter, and I basically walked away from it for a month and a half. Airlock activity ceased halfway through that period.)

The two main problems I was concerned with were:

(1) too much headspace: once the yeast stopped working, I was no longer getting any new CO2, and I risked infusion of O2 through the walls of the poly jug and through the airlock. If the CO2 dissipated, the cider could have oxidized and gone stale.

(2) yeast autolysis: I never racked out of primary. So it was sitting on a big cake of lees for the whole 6 or 7 weeks. When yeast runs out of sugar, I am told it can start recycling the nutrients by feeding on the mass of dead yeast. This apparently imparts "off flavors," although I wouldn't know how to identify them.

Well, what happened? I got back into town, and with fingers crossed, we opened that bad boy up, and found that the cider was delicious. It was bone dry, but had a crisp fresh apple aroma and nice acidity and tannin. (100% from our little scabby apples that come from our neglected orchard of big old trees). I was amazed. We back-sweetened a bunch of it up to 1.010 - 1.013 and bottled. Monitoring the carb pressure as it builds, and am preparing for a big night of pasteurizing, if need be. The rest of it is now off the lees and bulk stored in carboys with no headspace.

I still have no idea how to tell if malo-lactic is occurring/has occurred.

Thanks everyone for helpful comments up to this point. I think I lucked out on this one.

Congrats! Sounds like an 'old school' method if ever I heard of one. Set it, and forget it!

45 gallons of delicious, well-balanced cider is good news indeed!