Starter for a Pilsner (lager) Question

When making a starter for a pilsner, do I follow the same procedure as with ales? I'm most concerned about ferment temp. In 10 years of brewing, I've never brewed a lager... until next weekend. I just don't want to f*ck it up. I usually keep my starters on my counter (on a stir plate), which is 68-72F. I thought I recalled Jamil once saying lager starters should be done at standard starter temps, then chilled to pitching temp. Am I wrong?

Also, I usually start my ale starters 1-2 days before brewing. Is this the same for lagers? I was thinking 3-4 days might be more appropriate, given the fact the starter volume will be double my typical volume.

Thanks!

Just like with ale starters, lager yeast will multiply more rapidly at room temps. With a starter the name of the game is propagation and health. Once you get it in your beer it's a different story. At that point the name of the game ( in a pilsner anyway) is low ester production and Dyacetal reduction which is why a lager ferm profile looks the way it does and why you need so many damn yeast cells to do the work.
Do it just like an ale yeast starter with the only exception being you need to figure a much higher starting cell count per gravity point than you would for an ale.

For a lager, regardless of what type of lager, you want to pitch about twice as much yeast as you would for an ale. To that end, I always have my lager starters at room temp, but I start them at least a week (if not 2) before brew date, just to get that yeast count up. Brewskii hit it when mentioned to get a higher cell count.

Yep, agree 100%, Brewskii and avid.

Putting it in the fridge after the starter is done is to cold crash the yeast. The last thing you want in a beer where a clean flavour is a major component is the funky jungle juice from a huge lager yeast starter. Crash it, decant it, pitch it.

Drinking my first pilsner right now. Care and patience paid off!

avidhomebrewer said:

For a lager, regardless of what type of lager, you want to pitch about twice as much yeast as you would for an ale. To that end, I always have my lager starters at room temp, but I start them at least a week (if not 2) before brew date, just to get that yeast count up. Brewskii hit it when mentioned to get a higher cell count.

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So if I'm brewing next Sunday, I should be good with a 5 liter starter that I make tomorrow?

You haven't stated the O.G. or volume of your pilsner, nor the age of your yeast.

These three variables will determine whether a 5 liter starter is big enough for your batch of beer.

I made a 1 gallon starter the last time I made a Lager. It seemed to be enough. Yes, make it well in advance to give the yeast time to multiply, and I also let it ferment at room temp. I don't cold crash mine, but I bring it down to fermentation temps before I pitch. I also decant and only leave enough of the liquid to loosen up the yeast so it pours out easily.

You must have refrigeration to do this. I can only do lager in the winter.

zacster said:

I made a 1 gallon starter the last time I made a Lager. It seemed to be enough.

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Really suggest using mrmalty.com or yeastcalc.com to help you get to the right yeast count. A gallon is probably in the ball park for an "average" lager but could be way too much for a light American lager and not nearly enough for a big Doppelbock.

Okay... the details:

Basic Pilsner Recipe
5.5 Gallon Batch
OG: 1.049
WLP800 (Pilsner Lager Yeast)
Date on Vial: June 24, 2012 (produced 02/2012)

I prefer the yeast calculator in BeerSmith, which suggested a 3L starter given the best-by date and OG. I went with 4.5L:

Cool. Let us know how that turned out.

Sulli said:

Cool. Let us know how that turned out.

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Will do! I'll let it rip until next Friday, then throw it in my fermentation freezer for 2 days- it'll be at 58F since I'm fermenting a Pale Ale with WLP029. I'm looking forward to brewing this baby.

Largest starter to date

Brulosopher said:

Okay... the details:

Basic Pilsner Recipe
5.5 Gallon Batch
OG: 1.049
WLP800 (Pilsner Lager Yeast)
Date on Vial: June 24, 2012 (produced 02/2012)

I prefer the yeast calculator in BeerSmith, which suggested a 3L starter given the best-by date and OG. I went with 4.5L:

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I know the BeerSmith calculator is not nearly as conservative as most other calculators, but that seems way off.

By yeastcalc.com, that vial is only at about 10% viability (10B cells) and you would need a 30L+ starter with a stirplate to get near the appropriate pitch rate (362B cells).

I would strongly consider stepping it up one more time, and perhaps add another vial of fresher yeast. Under-pitched pilsners result in big time sulfur and/or diacetyl, in my experience.

Well, the yeast is rocking along. I'm not gonna worry too much about stepping it up and see what I end up with. Worst case, I give my friends a ton of gross beer that they say is the best they ever had

Well, at least you know what crap you're going to end up with, I guess.

I know what the calculations say, but I'm perfectly happy with 2L starters. Yes, I'm a heretic, and you may call me ignorant and nuts, but 2L starters work fine for my lagers, typically around 1.050. I can't even fathom how anyone could suggest your beer will be crap because you used a 4.5L starter.

What temperature do you usually ferment at? It can make a big difference in terms of the number of cells you need.

Have you submitted some of your lagers for judging? If so, were there any comments that might pertain to underpitching?

SpeedYellow said:

I can't even fathom how anyone could suggest your beer will be crap because you used a 4.5L starter.

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When you use 1 vial of expired yeast at 10% viability to make that 4.5L starter, you are still under-pitching by 200,000,000,000+ cells for even a standard gravity lager.

Fine if you just want something that tastes like home brew and is an off-flavor mess. Not fine if you want to make the best beer possible and approach commercial examples of the style.

Just do what professional brewers do. Make a 2.5-3 gallon batch, let those beasties take a good hold, then do another half batch and pitch it into the first. Or let it ferment all the way out, and pitch the cake onto another 5 gallons when you transfer to secondary.
Or just RDWHAHB!! The only mis-step I've had making lagers was not getting wort close enough to ferm temp when pitching.
It will be fine.

g-star said:

Well, at least you know what crap you're going to end up with, I guess.

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I guess...

I trust it'll turn out well. The starter is thick and milky:

osagedr said:

What temperature do you usually ferment at? It can make a big difference in terms of the number of cells you need.

Have you submitted some of your lagers for judging? If so, were there any comments that might pertain to underpitching?

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This is my first lager in 10 years of brewing!

g-star said:

When you use 1 vial of expired yeast at 10% viability to make that 4.5L starter, you are still under-pitching by 200,000,000,000+ cells for even a standard gravity lager.

Fine if you just want something that tastes like home brew and is an off-flavor mess. Not fine if you want to make the best beer possible and approach commercial examples of the style.

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I certainly appreciate your helpfulness. I guess I just don't have as much faith in the Mr. Malty calculator as others, particularly when it comes to the yeast viability. As I mentioned before, I prefer the BeerSmith yeast calculator and have used it successfully many times. According to it, my starter is larger than it needs to be.

Brulosopher said:

This is my first lager in 10 years of brewing!

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I'd then recommend you ferment a bit on the warm side--maybe around 53-55 degrees. It'll help compensate for underpitching.

Date on Vial: June 24, 2012 (produced 02/2012)

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I believe the confusion we are seeing with the starter volumes is his produced date and the date he claims is on the vial are different. June 24th, 2012, is 6/2012 not 2/2012.

6/24/12 shows a viability of 80% or 80B yeast. Which MrMalty shows only needing about 4.4L or about a gallon and a quarter. Not 30L. So it comes down to was the packaging stating Feb or June?

Does anyone in this thread who is making a big deal about yeast cell counts actually do yeast cell counts? There are a ton of variables that will affect the cell count of the final starter, and almost all of us are guessing/estimating every variable. The calculators are nice tools, but could potentially be off by orders of magnitude.

All that said, I won't argue that it is probably better to err on the side of over pitching, but none (or very few) of us really know what our pitching rate really is.

RDWHAHB. If your beer (particularly lagers) shows signs of under pitching, pitch more next time.

Adam

Nashbrewer said:

I believe the confusion we are seeing with the starter volumes is his produced date and the date he claims is on the vial are different. June 24th, 2012, is 6/2012 not 2/2012.

6/24/12 shows a viability of 80% or 80B yeast. Which MrMalty shows only needing about 4.4L or about a gallon and a quarter. Not 30L. So it comes down to was the packaging stating Feb or June?

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[URL="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/how-find-born-date-white-labs-yeast-249977/“]This[/URL] is how old the yeast is. Notice on the vial it says “best before” (i just happened to have a vial from the same batch, cool huh?)

The best before date on a White Labs vial is not the production date.

For White Labs, the yeast was produced and packaged 4 months previous to the "best before date".

Feb 24, 2012 is the date the OP would plug into a yeast calculator, which he did.

If it was a Wyeast smackpack the production date would be the actual date on the package.

The unspoken truth with yeast pitching is that there's a point of diminishing returns. For me, that seems to be around 2L starter. I've made outstanding commercial-quality lagers with 500mL starters (with Wyeast smack-packs) but fermentation is slow and risks are too high. But IMHO a 7L to 10L starter is way beyond the point of diminishing returns. If we could waver our magic wands and create a 10L starter every time, surely we would, but the reality is that's a real hassle and not necessary.

Maybe mrmalty says I "need" 2 smack packs and a 8L starter, but I'm sorry that's totally divorced from reality.

SpeedYellow said:

Maybe mrmalty says I "need" 2 smack packs and a 8L starter, but I'm sorry that's totally divorced from reality.

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Well, its actually based on years of brewing science and microbiological yeast research. If you think those widely researched/published lager pitching rates are fiction, then you are divorced from reality.

Again, it comes down to the difference between what works, and what is optimal. Yes, these starters with pitifully low cell counts will make beer, but the final product will suffer and never be more than mediocre homebrew.

The way I see it, it comes down to this: Is the goal to make something that is drinkable/validated by casual friends (oh yeah dude, this is great stuff!), or is the goal to make beer that can win awards from professional/objective judges, and approach the commercial quality of the finest examples of the style?

osagedr said:

I'd then recommend you ferment a bit on the warm side--maybe around 53-55 degrees. It'll help compensate for underpitching.

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Thanks, I'll likely pitch at 48F, let it rise and sit at 53F for 10 days, warm it up to 63F for a 2 day d-rest, then crash and keg.

Chefencore said:

[URL="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/how-find-born-date-white-labs-yeast-249977/“]This[/URL] is how old the yeast is. Notice on the vial it says “best before” (i just happened to have a vial from the same batch, cool huh?)

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Hah! What a coincidence.

If I recall correctly, the OP has been brewing for 10 years. This is his first Lager not his first brew... My guess is he has a grip on the importance of a good YCC.

... Just say'n

g-star said:

Yes, these starters with pitifully low cell counts will make beer, but the final product will suffer and never be more than mediocre homebrew.

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Hogwash, I say! I'm a huge advocate of yeast starters and proper pitch rates. That said, I've had a couple last minute brew days where I simply didn't have time to make a starter and I... wait for it... pitched a single vial of yeast. The last time I did this, November 2011, was with a porter that could have used a 1.5L starter. It turned out fantastic. In fact, my brewing friends and I all agreed it was better than many of the commercial porters we were drinking. I guess everyone's definition of "mediocre" is different.

Dogma limits...

Listen, if this Pilsner turns out and I deem it more than just mediocre, I'll be happy to send you a bottle! If it sucks, I'm not saying a thing

Cheers!

Brewskii said:

If I recall correctly, the OP has been brewing for 10 years. This is his first Lager not his first brew... My guess is he has a grip on the importance of a good YCC.

... Just say'n

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Thanks.

Brulosopher said:

Listen, if this Pilsner turns out and I deem it more than just mediocre, I'll be happy to send you a bottle! If it sucks, I'm not saying a thing

Cheers!

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I hunk your beers gonna suck too. Send me some!!

g-star said:

Well, its actually based on years of brewing science and microbiological yeast research. If you think those widely researched/published lager pitching rates are fiction, then you are divorced from reality.

Again, it comes down to the difference between what works, and what is optimal. Yes, these starters with pitifully low cell counts will make beer, but the final product will suffer and never be more than mediocre homebrew.

The way I see it, it comes down to this: Is the goal to make something that is drinkable/validated by casual friends (oh yeah dude, this is great stuff!), or is the goal to make beer that can win awards from professional/objective judges, and approach the commercial quality of the finest examples of the style?

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The obvious fact that MANY people have won awards and made commercial quality beer after DRAMATICALLY "underpitching" should be proof enough that the formula isn't a must for homebrew. But since you seem to be the expert on the science and research, perhaps you could explain:
1. What was the goal of the YCC pitching formula? To complete fermentation in minimal days, like 3-5? To minimize risk of spoilage? Other?
2. If we can use a quarter of the recommended YCC (saving time & money) but still complete fermentation in 7 days, isn't that a fair tradeoff? How about 10 days?
3. Does underpitching by 50% result in off flavors necessarily? Even if fermentation completes quickly and completely?

Big picture: The formula is optimizing things homebrewers don't need to optimize. if you're a pro brewery with unlimited gallons of yeast on hand and shareholders to please, you pitch the optimal amount that minimizes risk and fermentation time, for economic reasons. No compromises. Homebrewers can compromise a little risk and a few fermentation days yet still get the same quality beer.

SpeedYellow said:

1. What was the goal of the YCC pitching formula? To complete fermentation in minimal days, like 3-5? To minimize risk of spoilage? Other?
2. If we can use a quarter of the recommended YCC (saving time & money) but still complete fermentation in 7 days, isn't that a fair tradeoff? How about 10 days?
3. Does underpitching by 50% result in off flavors necessarily? Even if fermentation completes quickly and completely?

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1. The goal of the calculator is to help you pitch the correct amount of yeast for a healthy fermentation, no more, no less. This has been established by numerous outfits to be 0.75M cells/ml/*plato for ales, and 1.5M cells/ml/*plato for lagers. It has absoultely nothing to do with speeding up fermentation or making up for sanitation issues.

2. Again, you're off-base by only referring to speed of fermentation. Lower cell counts lead to stressed yeast and extended growth periods, which in turn results in development of off-flavor compounds (esters, sulfur, diacetyl, etc.).

3. Underpitching by 50% changes the flavor profile of the beer (usually for the worse), relative to a correctly pitched beer. For an extreme example, try altering pitching rates on a hefeweizen. You'll get two completely different beers when holding all other variables constant.

If saving money or time is your goal as a homebrewer, then keep under-pitching...you'll almost assuredly end up with drinkable beer. That's not something that interests me, but I guess YMMV.

SpeedYellow said:

The obvious fact that MANY people have won awards and made commercial quality beer after DRAMATICALLY "underpitching" should be proof enough...

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Have you personally dramatically underpitched and made award-winning beer? What awards did your underpitched beer win?

osagedr said:

Have you personally dramatically underpitched and made award-winning beer? What awards did your underpitched beer win?

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Best turn around? The comeback kid?

osagedr said:

Have you personally dramatically underpitched and made award-winning beer? What awards did your underpitched beer win?

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Instead of moving toward ad hominem attacks, let's stick to the issue for a moment. So you're saying that nobody has ever made award-winning or commercial-quality beer after underpitching?