Can I inoculate yeast slants from trub from the primary?

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GroosBrewz

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Hey all,

I am new to yeast ranching with only one batch under my belt, a set of London ale yeast slants that I took from a smack pack last week (the lids blew off during the week-lesson learned)..

Anyway, I am wondering if it is possible to culture yeast slants from the trub from the primary. I am racking today and have a nice 1056 yeast cake, but I don't plan on using the yeast anytime soon. I am wondering if I can inoculate slants from the trub for more long term storage. Any contamination concerns? Or should I only inoculate slants from a smackpack or vial? Thanks!
 
Yes you're right contamination is a big issue. I can almost guarantee that there is some kind of bacteria in the yeast cake. Should be a very small amount. ( I'd say a million or less is safe.) But why even chance it. If you culture an contaminated batch you will always have bacteria in any yeast you grow from that culture. And unless your know how to do gram stains. You can't guarantee your culture is pure. It's not all bad though safe the yeast cake just in case. You never know if you need it in the future or not. But once you dump it it's gone. Hope I helped. Don't get discouraged I have 9 cultures and going strong!!!
 
Well, there's no reason that when you're making the starter for the beer you can't just split the smack pack in half and make two starters -- one for the beer and one for your library. Right?
 
Hey all,

I am new to yeast ranching with only one batch under my belt, a set of London ale yeast slants that I took from a smack pack last week (the lids blew off during the week-lesson learned)..

Anyway, I am wondering if it is possible to culture yeast slants from the trub from the primary. I am racking today and have a nice 1056 yeast cake, but I don't plan on using the yeast anytime soon. I am wondering if I can inoculate slants from the trub for more long term storage. Any contamination concerns? Or should I only inoculate slants from a smackpack or vial? Thanks!

What is your time horizon for using the yeast? I have kept glycerol stocks in my deep freeze at home for over a year (-20 at lowest setting). The problem with slants is that they dry out...you have to keep re-plating them about every 4-6 weeks or so. Maybe less often if you keep them in a closed container with a wet sponge or something (but they have to "breath" as you found out already). For a large yeast library, re-plating could be a pretty time-consuming task.

Glycerol stocks will lose viability over their storage life, but if you are careful, they will keep a good long time. Making new stocks once a year is much better than around once a month.

I freeze my yeast stocks in 15% glycerol, using dry ice (to rapidly freeze them)...I found that faster freezing seemed to keep viability longer - no definitive data to back that up, just a feeling I got at one time when I was doing it.

On another note, making slants from the trub will probably work out O.K.. Make sure you do it around a heat source to keep the air currents flowing away from the tube. The number of bacteria in the trub should be very low compared to the yeast population. But, I agree with krops, there are some bacteria in there. One way to do it would be to dilute the trub significantly and streak the slant so that you get individual colonies. Any bacterial colonies may look out of place in comparison to the large number of yeast colonies. However, beware, as there are many bacterial colonies that look similar to saccharomyces in colony form.

Hope this helps,
PikledBill
 
The problem with slants is that they dry out...you have to keep re-plating them about every 4-6 weeks or so. Maybe less often if you keep them in a closed container with a wet sponge or something (but they have to "breath" as you found out already). For a large yeast library, re-plating could be a pretty time-consuming task.

While I'm not saying that freezing is a bad idea, I'm curious as to why you say that slants dry out.

I wash some of my yeast and I slant others. I haven't had a problem with slants drying out in the 3 months since I started. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say they need to "breathe". Sure, it needs to vent until the yeast has grown at room temperature, but after you throw it in the fridge it doesn't need to breathe. In fact, I tape mine shut with electrical tape before I throw them in the fridge.

But back to the OP, I wouldn't slant off the trub. I'd wash the yeast, stick it in the fridge and make a starter when you're ready to brew.

Cheers!
Amanda
 
While I'm not saying that freezing is a bad idea, I'm curious as to why you say that slants dry out.

Slants will dry out in the fridge and will not keep "indefinitely" at frdge temps.

Also, the more times you reculture/grow a yeast strain the more likely it is that mutations will change the basic underlying characteristics. In a small number of generations it is unlikely to happen, but if you expect to repropagate yeast many times over, this is not a safe assumption, IMO.

Freezing the yeast will keep it "indefinitely". How many slants are you going to manage and continue to monitor, regrow, and continuously care for? You could freeze a dozen or whatever tubes of yeast and either grow from scrapings of the yeast sample or by pitching the whole thing, but you don't have to regrow nearly as often (5, maybe 10 years if your techniques are sound and you have kept them frozen).

Neither method is right or wring, they are just different. IMO, if you have access to a chest freezer (or even better, you or a friend have access to a -80c freezer) on backup or very reliable power, I see no reason to even consider slants, but hey, some people like playing around with agar and tinkering with the yeast. IMO it just lends to more opportunity to contaminate/mutate/ruin the storage of said yeast.
 
Anyway, I am wondering if it is possible to culture yeast slants from the trub from the primary.

I would not innoculate the slants directly from the trub, but that's just me. If going from a media with suspended contaminants, you probably should streak it out on some plates and grow a small starter back up from there.

Preferable method is as others have stated, IMO. Go from smack pack or vial and split some portion straight away to a dedicated starter for propagation.
 
I have 1056 that I've been using almost a year now and I slanted it from a washed cake. I just streaked it earlier in the week and it's just fine. Bottom line is that you could have contamination, but there are ways to determine that before you use it.
 
I was simply trying to make the point that slants require some upkeep...a large library can be a time-consuming task. Slants will dry out (the way I make them anyway), and agar colonies will lose viability with time. But, many brewers use them . Yeast will lose viability if not stored at low enough temperatures (i.e. cryo-preservation, or -80 glycerol stocks)...refrigerator temps will prolong the viability of the yeast on a slant or plate, but not indefinately.

I am not suggesting that a slant will not be viable to some extent for more than three months...some claim six months or more without replating - I think that would be under optimal conditions (probably not sealed from gas exchange??). However, I readily admit that I have never tried to make a starter from a three-month old slant that was sealed in the refrigerator. Washing a slant that is beyond optimal storage life, or taking a large scrape of colonies from a slant will probably yield a viable starter...it may take a little longer than starting with a slant in optimal health.

You can seal a tube with parafilm or something similar (plastic wrap and/or tape) in the fridge...but note that yeast require oxygen for non-fermentive growth...if the tube is sealed completely, eventually the oxygen will be used completely (causing a slight vacuum??...hmmm, will have to think about that more...update:yeah, well thought about it more and wish I had the excuse of being drunk when I wrote it). The length of time involved before oxygen is depleted, is some function of the airspace above the slant, temperature, sugar concentration of the agar, and the concentration of yeast solution used to make the slant (other environmental conditions will also have some effect - pH, altitude, etc.)...I don't know exact parameters of this function - but I am sure someone has studied it.:D Once the yeast in the slant utilizes all of the oxygen, it will convert to fermentive growth. If the tube does not "breath" - or probably a more appropriate term would be "exchange gas" - the tube will build up CO2 under fermentive growth, and kill the cells. The time required for all this process to take place is specific to the character of each slant.

I have never made slants and sealed them completely from gas exchange, so I am no help regarding storage length in a "sealed" situation...sorry.

True that the best method is glycerol stocks at -80. I have -80 glycerol stocks that are over twenty years old (actually passed off from someone else to me) and still viable. An even better method is storage under liquid nitrogen if you know someone that keeps a dewar - but this is generally an extreme approach for personal storage at home.

I suggested glycerol stocks in the freezer, because most folks have a freezer...it is pretty simple, and in my experience requires much less maintenance than a slant library. I should have noted that most refrigerator/freezer combinations are of the "auto defrost" type. The auto defrost cycle of a freezer is essentially a warming/cooling cycle...this will severely limit the life of your glycerol stock (by 1/2 in worst cases...I have measured this). You can still use an auto-defrost freezer for your glycerol stocks, just put them into a styrofoam container (i.e. a cold-shipping styrofoam box) before putting them in the freezer. The styrofoam will act as a buffer against the freeze-thaw cycle caused by auto-defrost.

BTW: smack packs make great glycerol stocks...one smack pack can be used to make around 20 glycerol stocks...cheapens up the costs of your beer.:rockin:

I did not intend to discourage use of slants, just to put out the idea that freezer stocks last longer and require less maintenance, IMHO.

Good luck with your library:mug:

PikledBill
 
When they use up the O2, they excrete CO2... so no vacuum. There can be a pressure differential, though I'd imagine temperature had more to do with it than using up the available gases.

yup, super silly statement on my part.:drunk: There are times in my life when i really wish I had a "takeback" button...geesh
 
I have 1056 that I've been using almost a year now and I slanted it from a washed cake. I just streaked it earlier in the week and it's just fine. Bottom line is that you could have contamination, but there are ways to determine that before you use it.

How do you check for contamination other than odor or offtaste of the starter?
 
How do you check for contamination other than odor or offtaste of the starter?

You can do a smear across a plate, and look for colonies that look different. For this to work you need to dilute it down quite a bit, and mix really well. Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread, some bacteria look like yeast, so it's not a foolproof way.

If you have a microscope and know how to do a Gram stain, well, there ya go.

EDIT: in my lab, we can tell when our liquid cultures are infected by bacteria using phase contrast microscopy. The bacteria are a LOT smaller than the yeast, and they vibrate really fast. So, even if you don't Gram stain, so long as you have a liquid culture you can fairly often spot bacteria if there are enough of 'em.
 
If you have a microscope and know how to do a Gram stain, well, there ya go.


Out of curiosity, what strength magnification would you need to spot the yeasties and bacteria? I've got a microscope, it goes to 400x max.
 
Out of curiosity, what strength magnification would you need to spot the yeasties and bacteria?

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=what+magnification+microscope+to+see+bacteria[/ame]

Depends how much detail you want. If you just want to see that they're there, you're good.
 
Out of curiosity, what strength magnification would you need to spot the yeasties and bacteria? I've got a microscope, it goes to 400x max.

400x with good optics and lighting or an el cheapo scope? 400x is about the lower limit needed to differentiate, but you will only be able to know by trying it out with your equipment.
 
Hey guys- Wow, thanks for all the answers. I got the answer to my question, plus several perspectives on different ways to do things.. I was not familiar with the glycerol methods, but I will be investigating that.

As for sealed slants in the fridge, a friends of mine, a pretty famous mycologist named Jack Rogers from Washington State University (dude has several fungi named for him!) tells me that the best thing to do is plug the tubes with sterile cotton instead of a lid or cap.. Just yesterday I brought in my London Ale yeast slants to him and we looked at some of the scrapings under the microscope to look for contamination (I was worried since the lids blew off and they were without lids in my kitchen for 3 days).. The yeast were healthy and budding, so all is good on the contamination front!
 
Hey guys- Wow, thanks for all the answers. I got the answer to my question, plus several perspectives on different ways to do things.. I was not familiar with the glycerol methods, but I will be investigating that.

As for sealed slants in the fridge, a friends of mine, a pretty famous mycologist named Jack Rogers from Washington State University (dude has several fungi named for him!) tells me that the best thing to do is plug the tubes with sterile cotton instead of a lid or cap.. Just yesterday I brought in my London Ale yeast slants to him and we looked at some of the scrapings under the microscope to look for contamination (I was worried since the lids blew off and they were without lids in my kitchen for 3 days).. The yeast were healthy and budding, so all is good on the contamination front!

I agree 100% with this approach...not that Jack would need anyone else's approval. I would note that the reason for cotton is that it allows for gas exchange...and it filters nearly all the bacteria in environmental air.


Good Luck,
PikledBill
 
Wow, guys! Such a wealth of information here! I had looked into freezing my yeast so I can have a larger bank, but when I went looking for supplies in town (I live in po-dunk IL), people looked at me like I had two heads when I asked for gylcerin... so I gave up on that pretty quickly.

I may have to look into it again after the new year. I'm trying to do more research on all of this before I jump in head first without looking.

Thanks PickedBill and Randar and others!
Amanda
 
Wow, guys! Such a wealth of information here! I had looked into freezing my yeast so I can have a larger bank, but when I went looking for supplies in town (I live in po-dunk IL), people looked at me like I had two heads when I asked for gylcerin... so I gave up on that pretty quickly.


I got mine at the homebrew store, in a tiny little bottle like the shampoos you can take on the airplane in carry-on.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?q=food+grade+glycerin+where+to+buy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&client=firefox-a[/ame]

http://www.foodgradeglycerin.com/
 
Glycerin and glycerol are interchangeable and can be purchased by the gallon or even the bucket at Amazon, FYI. Of course you can get smaller bottles, just look for food safe version.
 
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