Ive decided to build a new brewery and after much reading Ive decided to go the RIMS route. The brewery is pretty much finished except for the electronics. My question
I want to put a heat sensor on the output of the MLT, the output of the heating element and one in the HLT. Can all of this be done with a PID or will I need something else. Even after reading numerous articles I still have no clue about electronics and I think I am more confused now then when I started. Help!!
Help-RIMS electronics question
- Thread starter Hydraman
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Sawdustguy
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The PID can have only one control sensor. Why do you feel you need three of them? Have a look at this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/. Thats how I did it anyway. I hope it helps.
freddyb
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In a RIMS setup, the temperature sensor used by the PID (or other temp controller) is typically located at the output of the RIMS device.
If you want to add thermometers to your HLT, MLT, etc. for the purpose of monitoring those temps, go right ahead. But as Sawdustguy mentioned, the PID only uses one temp sensor input.
If you want to add thermometers to your HLT, MLT, etc. for the purpose of monitoring those temps, go right ahead. But as Sawdustguy mentioned, the PID only uses one temp sensor input.
I wanted the two sensors, MLT and Heating element, so I could get a more accurate reading of the temp in the MLT. Do I not need that? I wanted to make sure that the temperature that is being read by the heating element is the actual temperature throughout the whole mash. Does that make sense or am I really complicating this? I have a habit of over thinking things.
samc
Well-Known Member
If you use the BCS unit you can have 4 probes going and monitoring your temps throughout your set up. I am pretty sure I am going to like mine if I ever finish the wiring, which I have promised myself that August is my deadline.... tick tick tick.
Embedded Control Concepts: BCS-460 Temperature Controller
I have one probe in the rims heater, one in the MLT, one for the HLT and one in the BK.
Embedded Control Concepts: BCS-460 Temperature Controller
I have one probe in the rims heater, one in the MLT, one for the HLT and one in the BK.
BrewBeemer
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My thinking is by the time you add all the PID's and build your system why not use a BCS 460 controller to run everything? Total cost of one controller vs all the PID's adds up in dollars rather fast. JMO here.
bakins
Well-Known Member
FWIW, I like my PID's better than screwing around with a laptop in my brew area. But, I hate computers when I'm not at work (been in IT for forever.)
Thanks Samc and Brewbeemer I didn't really think of that. After looking up some info on the BCS 460 controller, that seems like what I am trying to do but I don't have access to a computer nor do I think that is the greatest idea.
EvilGnome6
Well-Known Member
If it's just for monitoring, why not just place a few digital thermometers in the MLT and HLT? My HERMS control box is triggered by the temperature at the output of the HEX. Then I just set the alarm on my MLT thermometer to know when it reaches temp inside (usually lags by about 5 minutes in my system). It also lets me know how close to target I am inside the MLT during the mash.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
No matter which way you cut it a PID can only utilize one sensor. It is a control loop and if you break the loop all bets are off. Monitor the temperature in the MLT with a digital thermometer. As fredyb mentioned the sensor for the RIMS PID should be at the output of the RIMS heater.
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I placed my temp sensor at the outflow of my mash tun. I've been running that way for 12 years. I placed it there because the mash tun is the point in the loop that I want to control. As long as the PID is sensing there, any heat losses in the system fall out. I helped a member of my club convert his RIMS to PID control from the original Rodney Morris controller design. He had his temp sensor at the heater output. His system used 3ft uninsulated tubing to connect to the pump and heater and the temperature difference from the heater output to the mash tun was about four degrees. Besides the heater cycling all the time to overcome the heat loss, he was also mashing four degrees lower than he thought. Once we moved the temp sensor to the mash tun outlet the mash temp measured at set point.
BrewBeemer
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My computers in the house, the BCS-460 is in a sealed box on the brewstand, programed then disconnected a long time before the brewerey is in position, filled with well water or even powered up. I'm the last person around that is a computer friendly person. I guess you can go with a box with manual switching rated to your elements amperage plus use a Fluke Temp meter with its probe for semi KISS system? Or use your finger as a temp probe, "even a caveman can do it". Sorry to hear you hate your own job, that must be a joy to look forward to every morning when your alarm clock goes off?
bakins
Well-Known Member
I don't hate my job... I just don't like my job and my hobbies to mix. I only work on motorcycles with carburetors as well (ie, no electronic fuel injection).
Of course technically, a PID is a specialized small computer, but I don't have to fiddle with it much, so it doesn't count
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
The problem with your method is that you will get overshoots. Mine works really well with the sensor at the Heater output. If you don't believe me, there are quite a few who do it this way.
There are many others but I won't make a huge post listing them all.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
That must mean it's rare to work on Bings, BMW's just keep on running trouble free. I passed 100K on my untouched R90/6 my workhorse tour bike. I only have 9 bikes in the collection with three more on the want list.
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Sawdust,
I don't know what to tell you except that I don't get overshoots. I have a dial thermometer at the heater outlet and I see a 3 degree temperature difference between the heater outlet and the mash tun outlet during temp ramps. As the set point is approached, the difference smoothly converges to zero with no overshoot ever. This has been true through hundreds of batches over 12 years of operation. You have to sense the loop at the point that you want to control and the PID must be properly tuned. In the final analysis though, whatever works for you is the right way to do it.
Regards,
BorderBrewer
Like Sawdustguy has said, you want the temp controller as close to the heating element as possible. If your flow slows through the element it wouldn't take much time at all to overshoot temps and even boil wort in your heat tube. Use a regular thermometer in your MT, but use the one that the PID bases its controls off of just past the heat exchanger/tube. Beyond that use as low wattage per cubic inch heating element as possible. As long as your MT is well insulated you will see quick heat ups and minimal loss.
If I had to guess, your element wattage plus flow rate is such that you never overshoot by much.
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