Off-Flavor Frustration! Can anyone help?

Hello, I have been trying to nail down where an off-flavor in my batches for the past year. Its seems random, but I have been tweaking. I have been adjusting my process each time adjusting things.

I recently tried to ferment in my keggerator at a constant 63, I was thinking maybe they are fermenting too hot in the closet causing off-flavors. I did two IPAs a few weeks apart, the one I kegged today is CLEAN tasting and may be the best one ive done. The one I moved to secondary today has the off-flavor already that I describe as medicinal.

Here are the areas I have adjusted for these two IPAs:
Cleaning - PBW soak and Star San before use.
Water - Bottled Spring Water
Water additives - Using calc to add CaCl (2g) and Gypsum (5.5g)
Soaking grains @ 165 for 25 min and no more.
Most recently: Fermenting in Keggerator @63 deg, stays in there for secondary.

I am wondering if this could do something with the yeast. Both IPAs used Safeale US-05, I cooled the wort down to 63 deg in keggerator, then pitched it.

Any advice would be appreciated as I am getting quite frustrated. I am VERY excited my one IPA tasted so great going into kegging, but with the off-taste appearing in the other one I am guessing fermenting cooler did not solve my problem.

Anywhere else a 'medicinal' flavor could come from?

Thanks!

Sean

The first thing I would do is look at the spring water. Some is soft water, some is hard water, etc. Try switching to 100% reverse osmosis water, especially if you're adding calcium chloride and gypsum.

The next thing is you're steeping your grains at 165? Or the water is 165, and lowers to the 150s?

I don't like S05 below 65 degrees (it gets weirdly peachy) or over 70 degrees (it gets differently fruity) but it doesn't sound like that's what you're picking up.

A medicinal flavor generally comes from chlorine in the brewing water, or in the washing water for the fermenter and things. Sometimes it comes from infection, though, or stressed yeast.

Try removing or substituting one of your water additives at a time to see if they are making the difference. The chloride or sulfate might be to blame.

Talking about sulfates, could you describe the off-flavor as "cooked vegetable" or "cabbage-like"? I ask because I, personally, would describe the taste of cooked cabbage as medicinal.

I was getting the off-flavor before the additives, I started using them hoping that would help.

Would a campden tablet help if there is high chlorine? I had used some pool test strips on the water a while back and the chlorine was not extremely high, although I dont remember the exact number.

I would doubt high chlorine in spring water. Though, it is hard to nail it down 100% because you never know the true source of the water.

This might be heresy here, but have you tried an all-extract recipe to see if that makes any difference in the outcomes? From what I have read, it seems that the first place that these flavors might be starting is during the grain mashing process.

You might also consider pre-boiling your mashing water to purge chlorine or, as you mentioned, the campden tablet.

Seanbmc said:

I was getting the off-flavor before the additives, I started using them hoping that would help.

Would a campden tablet help if there is high chlorine? I had used some pool test strips on the water a while back and the chlorine was not extremely high, although I dont remember the exact number.

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I am questioning the "spring water". If you're getting off flavors, and it contains chlorine (even in moderate amounts), it's obviously not what you want for brewing.

Can you get reverse osmosis water? it's usually in those big "water machines" at the grocery stores or in places like Walmart, plus it's really cheap.

A campden tablet (or 1/4 one in 5 gallons of water) would remove chloramines and chlorine, but I wonder if the entire water is suspect.

Well im not sure about reverse-osmosis water, we do have the big Primo brand jugs at certain stores. I will definitely look around and see if it is available. Another local brewer suggested the bottled Harris Teeter Spring Water, although he did not have a water test done with it. I think he primarily uses Culligan, not sure if its reverse osmosis.

I used the same spring water for both of the IPAs I did, as well as the exact same additives in each. One turned out great, which is confusing me.

If I cannot find a good water source would it be worth looking into distilled water and building up a profile? (im not even sure if that is the correct term)

I did a search and my water plant in my city is a reverse osmosis water plant. I wonder if I should try to use tap water again.

Thanks!

What's your yeast pitch rate? I used to get similar off flavors when I under pitched yeast. Now that I've been consistently making starters and pitching at the proper amount those off flavors have disappeared.

Yeah, there is no telling where the bottled water, including name brand, comes from, let alone if it is consistent. Typically, if they don't cite a single source, it comes from whoever has the cheapest water source that week, so testing is probably a pointless endeavor.

Since we're looking to remove variables here, I would say to run a few batches with tap water, though I would recommend filtering it. The good thing about tap water is that it is more or less consistent and while it probably varies quite a bit seasonally, it probably doesn't change much over the course of a week or two between batches.

schokie said:

What's your yeast pitch rate? I used to get similar off flavors when I under pitched yeast. Now that I've been consistently making starters and pitching at the proper amount those off flavors have disappeared.

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I have not done any measuring of pitch rate. I was thinking I need to get more serious with the yeast and look into starters and maybe a stir plate. Ill have to do some research and probably make these changes also. Thanks!

Sean

1 pack of US05/ 5 gallons is about as safe and easy as it gets. If you can't make clean beer with 05, changing yeast ain't gonna fix it.

I think liquid extract just tastes a certain way.

Are you rinsing very, very well after the PBW cleaning?

Are you brewing extract or all grain? If you are brewing with extract and steeping grains, don't add anything to your water.

Change your water to a more sure chlorine free source. Buy RO or distilled water in jugs.

Use a pitch rate calculator like this one to determine a good pitch rate.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

Try this on one batch to see if the off flavors change. Don't rush your beer out of the primary. Use the hydrometer to determine FG and then give the beer time to clear.

schokie said:

What's your yeast pitch rate? I used to get similar off flavors when I under pitched yeast. Now that I've been consistently making starters and pitching at the proper amount those off flavors have disappeared.

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It seems the first thing most homebrewers do when an off-flavor problem comes up is to look for blame from an external source when it's usually caused by something in the process. The possibility of stressed yeast is far more plausible here than chlorine in bottled water should be looked into.

Something else to look at is cleaning and sanitation. I understand that quality products, PBW and StarSan, are being used but it would not be a bad idea to double check all tubing, siphons, connecters, valves etc to make sure there are no scratches, crevices or surfaces where something may be lingering.

bu_gee said:

I would doubt high chlorine in spring water. Though, it is hard to nail it down 100% because you never know the true source of the water.

This might be heresy here, but have you tried an all-extract recipe to see if that makes any difference in the outcomes? From what I have read, it seems that the first place that these flavors might be starting is during the grain mashing process.

You might also consider pre-boiling your mashing water to purge chlorine or, as you mentioned, the campden tablet.

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It looks like im gonna make a trip to the homebrew shop next weekend. Do you have a suggested recipe for an all-extract beer to test some different waters/yeast starters? I am thinking of doing a few 1 gallon batches.

Seanbmc said:

It looks like im gonna make a trip to the homebrew shop next weekend. Do you have a suggested recipe for an all-extract beer to test some different waters/yeast starters? I am thinking of doing a few 1 gallon batches.

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I don't have a recommended recipe, but my suggestion would be to dumb it down. If a recipe has two steps where another has one, pick the one with one step. Stick to one yeast and one water source. You want fewer variables, not more.

Do you use bleach anywhere, on anything in your homebrewery? Medicinal always calls first for eliminating chlorine. If it's not in the water, it could be somewhere else.

If you're kegging, there is a post here about it possibly being related to the o-rings on the keg.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/medicinal-plastic-like-smell-271049/

Read for yourself, but he didn't elaborate much. But I could see either a contaminated or leaky o-ring causing problems.

bu_gee said:

If you're kegging, there is a post here about it possibly being related to the o-rings on the keg.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/medicinal-plastic-like-smell-271049/

Read for yourself, but he didn't elaborate much. But I could see either a contaminated or leaky o-ring causing problems.

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But im getting the flavor out of primary. I bought a new big mouth carboy because I thought maybe my old big glass one was not getting clean enough. So this flavor came early before kegs.

jbaysurfer said:

Do you use bleach anywhere, on anything in your homebrewery? Medicinal always calls first for eliminating chlorine. If it's not in the water, it could be somewhere else.

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I starsan a lot out of a spray bottle.

Seanbmc said:

Well im not sure about reverse-osmosis water, we do have the big Primo brand jugs at certain stores. I will definitely look around and see if it is available. Another local brewer suggested the bottled Harris Teeter Spring Water, although he did not have a water test done with it. I think he primarily uses Culligan, not sure if its reverse osmosis.

I used the same spring water for both of the IPAs I did, as well as the exact same additives in each. One turned out great, which is confusing me.

If I cannot find a good water source would it be worth looking into distilled water and building up a profile? (im not even sure if that is the correct term)

I did a search and my water plant in my city is a reverse osmosis water plant. I wonder if I should try to use tap water again.

Thanks!

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I buy the Primo/Culligan water from the machine at Walmart--37 cents a gallon. It is RO. And yes, you can build your water from distilled. Download the free Bru 'n Water spreadsheet.

Seanbmc said:

But im getting the flavor out of primary. I bought a new big mouth carboy because I thought maybe my old big glass one was not getting clean enough. So this flavor came early before kegs.

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I don't know much about the art of cleaning glass, but I used to read (a few years ago now) that the way to get stuff off of glass really good was to use Trisodium Phosphate (TSP). Does anybody do or talk about this anymore?

MaxStout said:

I buy the Primo/Culligan water from the machine at Walmart--37 cents a gallon. It is RO. And yes, you can build your water from distilled. Download the free Bru 'n Water spreadsheet.

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With the name Culligan in it I might suspect it went through a water softener.

flars said:

With the name Culligan in it I might suspect it went through a water softener.

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LOL.

Culligan spun off their RO water vending business to Primo a few years ago, but Primo is still using the Culligan name through licensing terms with the acquisition. The info at the machine I went to in Walmart states it's RO.