Caught a high primary temp and lowered it, am I ok?

Hello all. I am new to this forum and new to home brewing in general. however I am a beer drinking veteran lol.

Anyways. This is just my second batch, my first was a brown ale which I have high hopes for, I was initially worried because it foamed through my air lock and i didnt notice until it had dried out. but no signs of contamination and it smelled and tasted great when i bottled it.

Anyways, the second beer I chose was a Home Brew brand kit, a Mexican Cerveza. I read that it is a lager and since I am not set up to lager a beer, I do not have high hopes to start. Learning from my first experience with overflow, I chose to go with a blow off tube into a container of sanitizer. When I checked out it this morning, the container had already foamed over and made a mess. I cleaned it up very sanitarily (word?) so no worries about that. But after some research, I found that the reason for my overactive fermentation may be temp. and it was. I was sitting around 77 F. I caught the problem and managed to rig up my AC in my closet to bring it down to around 68 F which i read was optimal.

TL;DR - My first 24 hours of primary were at a high temp of 77F, I caught it and have lowered it to 67F. Will that help me? or is most of the damage done? and since it is a lager, should i maintain an even lower tempterature for secondary?

Thanks, and I looks forward to continue to lurk around for tips and answers and try to contribute where I can.

- Rob

Edit 1: uploading a pic right now. my closet setup is pretty ghetto fabulous so i figured id share it. I wrapped the colander in a wet towel to bring the temp down before i had the AC in there.

77*! Wow! And for possibly 24 hrs? You created some fusel alcohol for sure, but being that you were able to drop the temp down likely means you'll still be able to create a friendly alcohol. This may end up being the night's finishing beer as drinking nothing but may give you a hang over.

It's only a lager if you used lager yeast. Many kits state it's a lager, but give you ale yeast.

68* isn't optimal, it's usually the high end of the temp range. Mid 60's is usually optimal. And 68* air temp isn't the same as 68* beer temp. Even 68* water temp doesn't equal 68* beer temp. Air temp can be 10* warmer, and water temp has been about 5* cooler than beer temp for me (keeping the water in the mid 60's).

I'm going to guess you'll not be too happy with this beer, but there's no reason to give up on it yet. If it gives you a hang over and goes down like high octane race car fuel dump it.

Use the cooler to chill water in and set your carboy in it. Freeze soda bottles to maintain the water temp.

thanks. i will try that, I actually thought of putting it in a cold water bath but was a little bit worried about bringing the temperature down so fast, and I was also wondering if cooling the bottom half of the colander more than the top half would cause any more problems? haha. Also...is it important to maintain the lower temps throughout the entire process? or could I get away with room temperature after the primary ferment stage?

After running the setup I have right now over night, the air temp is hovering right around 60F. There is still bubbling in my blowoff tube about every 10 seconds and a nice fluffy head in my colander. I will keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for the tips!

There is NO way to bring the temp down too fast.

I put a fermenting stout at 76F in my DEEP FREEZE set at effing 0 degrees. It took 8 hours to get down to 65 with fermentation going strong.

Two things may happen. You might get esters, a banana flavor to the beer. You might get a rocket fuel alcohol. Sometimes you can age out the rocket fuel a bit.

With that said I wouldn't overly worry about it. Finish it out and see what happens.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

There are no issues with only cooling the bottom half or 2/3 of your beer.

From what I understand is it's the first week that's important to keep the temp down. Some people allow it to slowly rise to room temp over the next 2 weeks. I generally keep my temps down for 2 weeks minimum, and might allow it to go up from there. I also keep mine in primary for 4 weeks also, which isn't typical as most people leave a typical beer for 3 weeks.

Do you have a fermometer on your carboy? They are the same thing as a stick on aquarium thermometer. It'll give you a good idea of your BEER'S temp and not the water or air. You'd place it near your fill level to keep it out of the water, but below the krausen level.

RJam204 said:

thanks. i will try that, I actually thought of putting it in a cold water bath but was a little bit worried about bringing the temperature down so fast, and I was also wondering if cooling the bottom half of the colander more than the top half would cause any more problems? haha. Also...is it important to maintain the lower temps throughout the entire process? or could I get away with room temperature after the primary ferment stage?

After running the setup I have right now over night, the air temp is hovering right around 60F. There is still bubbling in my blowoff tube about every 10 seconds and a nice fluffy head in my colander. I will keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for the tips!

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If you are at all concerned about high temps or even low temps, definitely use a swamp cooler. The thermal mass of the water will help moderate your beer temp, and keep it uniform throughout. Repeat after me: "Swamp coolers are my Friend!"
Unfortunately for you, the most important time to keep the temp on the low side is the 1st 24 hours or so(the 'lag period'). Most of the off-flavor compounds are produced early. Some of them can be cleaned up late in fermentation, if you help the yeast out by actually warming things up a bit(in lager fermentation this is called the Diacetyl rest). So another Repeat after me: " Start Cool, End warm". And, I suppose a 3rd: "Time Heals Most Wounds". This may not turn out to be exactly what you were hoping for, but given some time, it may turn out OK. If you have about 3 hours to spend, check out the Revvy post about 'Never Dumping your beer'. It's actually pretty encouraging to read about mistakes people have made and how their beer turned out fine, and sometimes even great. Good Luck!

I've had a couple of beers that were rough for several months, but turned out to be OK later. Fusel alcohol is irreparable though.

My first attempt at brewing was similar, except that I never did anything with the temp. It fermented warm, and just 2-3 beers would give the nastiest hangover the next day akin to drinking a bunch of cheap tequila.

Awesome awesome awesome. Thanks everyone!

JimRausch said:

If you are at all concerned about high temps or even low temps, definitely use a swamp cooler. The thermal mass of the water will help moderate your beer temp, and keep it uniform throughout. Repeat after me: "Swamp coolers are my Friend!"

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Just googled swamp coolers on my lunch break. It is such a great and cheap fix for my problem until I can get my hands on a second fridge. My cooler may be too small, but a Walmart rubbermade container should work fine, just wouldnt be insulated...but I could snag some SM insulation and tuct tape from work and do it myself!

JimRausch said:

Unfortunately for you, the most important time to keep the temp on the low side is the 1st 24 hours or so(the 'lag period'). Most of the off-flavor compounds are produced early. Some of them can be cleaned up late in fermentation, if you help the yeast out by actually warming things up a bit(in lager fermentation this is called the Diacetyl rest). So another Repeat after me: " Start Cool, End warm".

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By finish warm, are you saying for the last week in the colander let it come to room temp? or even sooner?

I will definitely check out that article this evening. I am interested to get home this evening and see how my fermentation is continuing at the 48 hour point after such an active first 24 hours.

Thanks for all the advice all! I now know not to expect a Corona, but can at least hope to have a palatable and drinkable beer after all this. I am already excited to make my next batch with what I have learned on these first two lol.

I'll keep this post updated with the process and finished product for anyone interested.

Thanks again!

No need to insulate it, but if you live where it's warm it might be nice. I live in TX and so I have to rotate plenty of frozen bottles throughout the day, and my A/C is set at 75*. During the winter "cold snaps" I don't need to as often.

He does mean allow it to reach room temp. It allows the yeast to be more active instead of keeping them a bit cooler and slower where they don't create so much off-flavor.

Well I got home from work today and the air temp around my beer was still in the mid 60's. I picked up a rubbermade bin and have now put it in there plus I have about a dozen water bottles freezing in the freezer. Now to find a way to maintain a semi constant temperature being away from home for 10 hours a day working. Oh well, thats all part of the fun eh?

I also snagged an aquarium thermometer and stuck it on the outside of the colander. it only goes down to 66F however, and I can just see the slightest color on it so I must be sitting just at or below that temp, which is good. I will have to keep the floating thermometer in there but thats not a big deal. I also threw some sanitizing solution in the water just to be safe as well.


Thanks for all the advice! I hope I was able to save this brew. I am JUST past the 48 hour point and am still getting a steady bubble every 5 seconds or so through my blowoff tube and still have a nice fluffy head in the colander. Fingers still crossed.

And just for one last bit of clarification. Should I leave it for an extra week in the colander before bottling to try and stable out the flavors and alcohol and let the yeast do a little extra work?

And at what point should I start letting it come up to room temp? (which is 70F or 20C to me)

Thanks guys! If this manages to be a drinkable beer I will for sure raise one to ya'll for the help! And even if it turns out **** and needs to be dumped, then I will raise a glass of my next batch that turns out great using your tips and hints lol. Cheers

EDIT: Added a pic of my new cooling setup.

For me, way down here where it's warm, I have to use 2 liter soda bottles mostly. I also use 2 qt juice bottles and several soda/water bottles from 20 oz to 1 lit.

What you call your colander is a carboy BTW.

Most seem to allow their temps to rise after about 2 weeks.

You may want this one to sit for 3 or even 4 weeks to help the yeast clean up and try to mellow any flavors out. Longer can't hurt.

Lol wow...how did I call it a colander so many times? Weird.... I knew it was a carboy. Whenever I talk about brewing I say carboy. hahaha. Lost my mind for a while there

I have a bunch of 1L gatorade bottles and a couple 2L soda bottles. as well as a few 500ml bottles and a few trays of ice. I should have lots to keep it cool since i lowered the overall temp in my apartment.

And thanks for the response again. I will stop adding as much ice after the 2 week stage and aim to bottle around the 1 month stage. When I bottle, if I taste a sample I draw off will I be able to taste any off flavors already? or will they only be apparent after carbonation?

I've never tasted my beer until it was ready except for a hazelnut brown that I had to add extract.

I've also found that a 2 lit bottle can take 24 hours to freeze solid.

Good news.

After allowing the carboy to sit in the water over night with a fan blowing on it, the water temp is still right at 60*F and the fermometer is still reading around 66*F. And that is without any ice at all. Since the krausen has stopped coming through my blowoff, I switched back to my airlock filled with vodka and I am still getting steady bubbles every 7-10 seconds. Still keeping my fingers crossed this isnt a write off.

Good ol science and internet forums!!

Thanks so much! I am already looking forward to my next batch with everything I have learned from these last 2!

Cheers

Do report back how it turned out.

Hey RJ,
Like your setup. Looks like it will work well to moderate temps. You don't have to waste your good sanitizer in there. A splash of bleach works well there. It's not getting to the beer, so it's a good cheap alternative to keep the water from getting groaty.
The mid60's temps that you are getting now is just where you want to keep it until you aren't seeing anymore bubbles(which I predict will be in another day or two). You won't be finished yet, just visible signs. That's the time when I increase temps. to finish her off. Low -mid 70's is perfect for that. As Rodwha indicates, the increased temp keeps the yeast active and they start munching on those compounds that were produced early. Usually 2-3 days at a higher temp. is sufficient. Then....... what you do with her gets a little controversial. Options are: 1. Bottle/keg then. Probably not the best option as she may have a little more cleanup left to do. Plus give her some time to settle and clearup. 2. Leave her alone in the carboy for another week or two. The cleanup and settling will happen very nicely there. 3. Rack (transfer) to a secondary vessel. This is the controversial area, and if you spend some time looking around, you'll read plenty of opinions on pros and cons. It's a personal choice, but.... almost everything that happens in a secondary/ conditioning/bright tank will happen in the primary. Then after a week or two, prime, bottle and wait some more before drinking. And yes, I do try samples every time I check SG, at bottling time, and about once a week until she's ready. I like to notice the changes as she matures.
Another Q you asked is whether you can pick up the off-flavors before the process is completely finished. Yes, conditionally. Flat, green beer won't taste the same as it will when carbonated, chilled, and ready to drink. But the rocket fuel type fusel alcohols will be apparent, as will some of the other off-flavors, if you have a decent beer palate. If you're not sure, ask a buddy, hopefully someone who knows homebrews.

Thanks JR. More great advice. I was out of bleach and had just a little sanitizer left so tossed it in haha. Reloaded on bleach today and will add a splash when i get home.

I am glad to hear the temps I am getting are right where I want them. I realized that the main reason my closet was so warm, or at least the air was that day, is because my blinds were open and the sun was shining on the door right before I checked the temp :S haha. I caught it yesterday when I got home from work and opened the blinds and saw the sun shining right on the door and felt the warmth almost instantly to the touch. So I am really not as worried as I was previously, because the air would have only been that temperature for a short time, much shorted than it would take to warm to beer to that temp. The carboy was still cool to the touch. Like I have said a number of times...fingers crossed!! lol

As far as racking goes...I have done my own research on this debate and if what i have read is from reliable sources, then there are some types of beers and situations where racking is preferred or even required, mostly beers that need more time aging before bottling or when you use certain additives like woodchips or fruit. But I am still in the rookie stages and using kits for now until I get the fermenting and bottling down to an art, then I will start experimenting with AG brews (Cant wait for this!!!)

So for now, I am gonna go with the "no need to transfer" theory for a couple reasons. like you said, all the same things are going to happen in the primary for the more basic beers i plan to brew for now. So why introduce possible contaminants or oxidization when it is not necessary to the end products quality. And also...one less step and need to clean, sterilize and then reclean a bunch of equipment lol. (I am a little bit lazy...just a little)

Thanks!

And rodwha I will absolutely check back and update as this batch progresses.


EDIT: Approaching the 72 hour (3 day) mark and still getting steady bubbles every 12 seconds on the dot almost haha. The krausen has definitely started to die down but there are still some nice big frothy bubbles on there. If i am not mistaken, this is pretty much dead on what I should be expecting around the 3 day mark correct? I pitched the yeast (Coopers that came with the kit) at 7pm Sat night.

I have also come to learn, throw the kit yeast out and do a lil google search to see what type of liquid yeast would go best with the kit. Live and learn. That is what is making this so fun when I havent even cracked a beer yet. I dont think I would enjoy it if there wasnt so much to learn and so much to screw up! hahaha

Cheers!

Yes. Drink it, learn what it does to the beer, flavor-wise, and learn. Did not read, but do not throw it out. It'll be OK.

A couple pics at the 72 hour mark. Like I said. Getting a bubble like clockwork at 12-15 seconds.

A pic of my current set up. (still havent had to add any ice to keep the water temp at 62*F steady for 24 hours without the fan



and a close up pic of the krausen at the top of my carboy at minutes within the 72 hour/3 Day point. (i hope i am using the term krausen correctly lol)

You are.

I wish I could keep my water temp like that without ice! Maybe things will change when we move to VA this summer...

Well, this morning when I woke up I was clearly seeing color on the 66* of the fermometer so I knew my temp wasnt holding any longer. The water temp read 65* or so. So I just pulled the towel (which is now tie-dyed because of the bleach i splashed into the water to keep it clean lol) up onto the carboy and put the fan on it. Came home from work 10 hours later and the water temp was back down the the low 60's and I was barely reading color on the fermometer. So I am right back to where I wanna be still without ice. What a GREAT solution to a problem I expected to cost me a good chunk of money and an even bigger chunk of 1bedroom apartment space for a 2nd fridge haha.

I set my stop watch and timed 3 bubbles for an average at the 4 day point and am still getting a bubble almost every 60 seconds on the nose.

So as far as I understand from the advice ive got and the research I have done. I am best to leave it at these mid 60's temps until around the 2 week point where I will slowly remove the water and let the carboy come up to room temp of about 70 degrees for another 10 - 14 days to let the flavors and yeast "clean up" and then prime and bottle as usual?

Any advice on priming? I am using a basic dextrose from the local brewery shop. he said if i used the 10x more expensive product with a malt extract in it i would get a better lasting head and all this other stuff but he ultimately said just go with the basic bulk dextrose. How important is the priming sugar? (sorry if i am abusing your knowledge and helpfulness, I know I could search this and get the answer, but I like how you guys are laying it out for me with both sides. cause you never know if an article author is biased or not)

Cheers

I typically use table sugar but my friend convinced me to give corn sugar (dextrose) a try.

I've also used the carb tabs as well as honey.

I've never used DME.

My friend noted that the bubbles were smaller with corn sugar vs table.

rodwha said:

I've never used DME.

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shot in the dark. DME = Dextrose Malt Extract? lol

No. Dry Malt Extract. It's the wort made by grains, but reduced to a dry extract form. It's a step beyond LME (Liquid Malt Extract).

oh yes. I remember now the guy at my LHBS explaining what it was to me. he said the head would last longer if i used the DME? I dunno. He ultimately said that it is like 10x the price and isnt worth it in his opinion. And just being a learner, I am not gonna go all out just yet haha. Ruining a $40 kit and a couple hours of work because i made a mistake is something I can live with for now haha.

Anyways....Update. 6 day point. Krausen has nearly disappeared. Beer has started to clear a little bit. Sat for 2 minutes and didnt see a bubble this evening. So yeah...in a week I am gonna bring the temps up to room temp for the final 2 weeks. Then bottle time. Fingers crossed!

Well the swamp bath worked perfectly. I maintained temps in the mid 60's all week with out using any ice, just a towel with a fan running on it. The krausen is gone and the beer has really started to clear up. I can see right through the carboy now.

To bring the temp up to the low 70's now for the next couple weeks, all I have had to do is remove the towel and lower the water level on the bath. i still leave the fan on it just to move the air. But it has maintained 70 on the fermometer for a couple days.

I actually lucked out as well. I put an ad up on Kijiji, Canadas version of Craigslist, just saying I want an apartmnet sized freezer to brew beer. Well a guy messaged me back and said he had one he could let go for $50. That is what I was willing to pay so I told him I would pick it up but I wanted to know the model number so I could do some research to get a digital temp controller. It just so happens that he works for one of the bigger Refridgeration companies in my city, and that I had just finished doing the work on his bosses brand new house. Small world haha. Anyways, he told me he has a Johnson Controls a419, which is the EXACT controller i was trying to find a place to buy it in town. He threw it in for $20 and showed me how to wire it. I lucked out.

So now, I am set up to lager my first batch of beer! Just waiting to bottle this current batch, then I am going to go for it. I wired the control and ran it with the probe in a big gulp cup full of water and was able to maintain temps right where I wanted them, and that was in a cup not a large carboy filled with liquid. so everything seems to be working just as it needs to be.

Man that is awesome! Congrats!

thanks! I am nervous though haha. Do you have any links to a definitive lager strategy? I have learned that just giving it the ol college try will not yield good results haha. I would like to take the next couple weeks of fermentation time to do some research on lagering and would really appreciate some well respected information and articles to read through.

I will be using a kit, and i will definitely Google the kit i choose to use, toss the kit yeast, and use the recommended lager yeast. I would just like to be sure i do the proper research before i dive into it.

Also. Since I bought a small freezer, there isnt a lot of room in there. There is room for a pail with no trouble, but since the carboy is wider, it will not fit in the bottom of the freezer. I am going to go to my LHBS and see if i can find a skinnier and taller carboy. If I can not, will it be a problem for me to lager my beer in a plastic pail? I know plastic will leach oxygen over time and can cause oxidation...but I do not plan to do any oktoberfest type beers that will lager for months. I just plan to do standard lagers for now. So if I lager in a pail, and skip a secondary, will I get a quality lager?

Thanks!

I don't have the means to do lagers, and so I've not really looked into them.

For some of my light ales I have placed them in the fridge long term, which sort of lagers them. These were a sort of hybrid beer.

Some kits come with or have the option of choosing the yeast. I know MoreBeer's kits allow you to choose your own. But they also give you 4 oz of corn sugar in every kit without explaining that you'll need to check and see how much is actually needed. I get the ease of prepackaged amounts, but many new people don't know it needs to be measured by style, and so can create a highly carbonated beer.

Head space is the problem with long term. If you could infuse it with carbon dioxide it would fix that I believe. Not recommended from what I can tell, but one could add a small bit of sugar to create a small fermentation to create a new layer of CO2. Best to just do it right though. It could be the difference between a good beer and a great beer.

checked in on my beer today, planning to bottle tomorrow. And there is something growing on top of it that wasnt there last week... Can anyone identify the infection and let me know if I should even bother bottling. It doesnt smell rotten or sour, more like apple juice with a little beer. I pulled a sample and tasted it...it tastes like sweet, apple'y beer.



Should I even bother bottling now? After the high primary temp, and now this infection. I have heard people say never throw it away because you never know...but I am sure there are situations where a dump is warranted haha.

(Edit: And no, those are not bubbles. I have stared at them for long enough to know and when I took the sample they stayed in tact on the side of the wine thief)

Thanks

Bottle it! You can always dump it later if it's not good.

Get out your siphon, avoid the top, and avoid the bottom dregs too. There are many who have racked their beer out of a funky looking carboy, and had good beer anyway. I would use a calculator to determine how much priming sugar you should use for the style you are brewing. For my Browns, Porters, and Stouts, I use 0.70 oz priming sugar per gallon, and for my ESB's, Ambers, and the like I use 0.85 oz per gallon. I like the lighter ales to have a bit more carbonation to create a better mouth feel. You wouldn't think a half ounce of sugar plus or minus in 5 gallons would affect the carbonation, but it will, and it does. I have had a batch go funky on me, when I let the temperatures cycle too high between fermentation and bottling. The yeast wasn't growing at that point, and an infection started due to no competition.
I start all my fermentations at the bottom range of the yeast I use, I only use ESB 1968, and ferment for two or so weeks at 64* F, and let the temperature gradually rise to 70* F over the next couple of weeks. I don't let the temperature get any higher than 70* F before bottling anymore. Depending on my schedule, sometimes my beers will primary over six weeks. I have a Brown Porter I brewed on 1/10/2014, and today is it's 14th day in the bottle. This beer tasted AMAZING going into the bottling bucket, so I just can't wait to crack one open. The carbonation may still be a little light as of today. We cracked one open tonight, just to see what we had. The carbonation was a little light, and the malt hadn't come to the front yet, but the Samuel Smith's Taddy Porter we opened afterwards let me know a couple more months and mine will taste very close to it. That was the plan, actually...

well...I bottled her tonight. I ended up leaving a good few inches of beer in the carboy because once i saw the little baddies from the top start to get sucked into the wand I stopped.

It didnt smell or taste any different. It was still sweet, but definitely had a beer flavor to it.

Well it is bottled and stored away, I will make sure to check back in a month to report how it turned out.

I am going to the LHBS tomorrow afternoon to grab my next kit. I am gonna do a modified HomeBrew Pilsner. Using a Wyeast pilsner urquel and slightly less water. It will be my first lager so I am excited for that.

Well it has been a few weeks. I have opened and tried a few along the way and have not even gotten past a couple tastes each. At first it was horrid. Taste, smell, everything about it was just baaaaad.

The second one was better...but still bad. Carbonated perfectly. Great mouth feel. It was clear as glass before I chilled it then it got cloudy after it was cold.

The last one I tried was this weekend and it was better... I could taste what it should have tasted like. It still got cloudy when chilled though for whatever reason.

They all have a distinct buttery taste. Like a buttery after taste. Not so much a buttery feel, but like there was melted butter in the last sip. Any idea what that could be or if that is a normal problem? I cant think of a better way to describe it...maybe butterscotchy but without the scotchiness? which i guess is just buttery hahahah.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/21/diacetyl-in-home-brewed-beer-the-butterscotch-flavor/

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-8.html