W30/70 lager temp - change? temp to high?

[Knoah]

First Lager
I have a 5gallon batch of Helles style beer with W30-70 yeast in fermentation chamber ( fridge/ space heater/ inkbrid - probe with insulation taped to side of fermentor). Currently temp set to 60f. It has been been in the chamber for 48hrs and there is movement in airlock. I picked 60f for it being the middle of yeast temp range based of manufacture website and I did not notice there was a ideal range on the package .

My question: Is my ferment temp too high? Should I bring it down to 55f or just leave it alone?

Thanks

 

[lumpher]

Since it's bubbling, the yeast character is already set. Don't worry about 60, though, since many people ferment with it at that temp, especially for steam beers. I know a Helles isn't a steam, but it will be fine, nevertheless.

 

[dmtaylor]

Leave it alone. Some studies indicate it turns out even better when fermented warm vs. fermented cold. You're fine at 60 F. Perhaps even consider warming it up a couple more degrees, after fermentation seems to be about halfway over, for a diacetyl rest and to help the yeast cleanup after itself.

 

[Knoah]

Most excellent. Thanks for advice.

 

[Beermeister32]

I usually ferment lagers at 48-50F. I ramp up to about 66F at the end of fermentation for a D rest prior to keg transfer and then lager at 34F for 60-90 days, sampling along the way.

If you have the ability to do a colder fermentation, I’d give it a try on your next batch.

 

[VikeMan]

Some studies indicate it turns out even better when fermented warm vs. fermented cold.

Do you have links to any of these studies? I'd be very interested to read them.

 

[jdauria]

There are plenty of brewers who say they have had good luck with 34/70 and it's liquid equivalents are warm ferment temps. But if you have a ferm chamber, I would ferment it at "real" lager temps, around 50-54 if it were me. Not sure what studies DMTaylor is talking about, maybe some Brulosophy experiments, where it's like "20 people tested a lager fermented warm, vs cool. Ten would be the p number, but only 9 were able to tell the difference..." But I would take those "studies" with a grain of salt. Basically if you can ferment a lager cold, do it cold, if you can't do it warm.

 

[dmtaylor]

Do you have links to any of these studies? I'd be very interested to read them.

I do have at least one link but having trouble finding it right now. Remind me later if I forget. It is from Fermentis themselves.

 

[VikeMan]

I do have at least one link but having trouble finding it right now. Remind me later if I forget. It is from Fermentis themselves.

If it's Fermentis, and if it's the 34/70 one one I'm thinking of, they basically determined that the measured levels of several compounds are similar for several fermentation temperatures between 12C and 20C (54F to 68F), but not that the beer was better (or worse) when fermented warm. It's also worth noting that they didn't include traditional cold lager fermentation temps.

Or was it a different study?

 

[dmtaylor]

If it's Fermentis, and if it's the 34/70 one one I'm thinking of, they basically determined that the measured levels of several compounds are similar for several fermentation temperatures between 12C and 20C (54F to 68F), but not that the beer was better (or worse) when fermented warm. It's also worth noting that they didn't include traditional cold lager fermentation temps.

Or was it a different study?

That's the one. The link below isn't exactly the link I've seen before, but has the same info and reaches the same conclusions. In it, on pages 25 & 26, they conclude:

"THE HIGHER THE TEMPERATURE OF FERMENTATION, THE LOWER FERMENTATION TIME WITHOUT DAMAGE TO BEER QUALITY"

and

"THE LOWER THE FERMENTATION TEMPERATURES, THE HIGHER THE RISK OF SLOW FERMENTATION AND OFF NOTES"

So, while I might have misreported these conclusions earlier, their second conclusion is still consistent with my recommendation NOT to lower the temperature -- there's really just no good reason to.

http://miami-homebrew.org/wp-conten...rmentis-Educational-Session-34_70_134_256.pdf

 

[Beermeister32]

Me Confused. Page 24 says lower temp and lower pitch rate for the off notes. Page 26 they didn't make that pitch rate reference.

 

[VikeMan]

"THE LOWER THE FERMENTATION TEMPERATURES, THE HIGHER THE RISK OF SLOW FERMENTATION AND OFF NOTES"

Thanks! I see that conclusion, but I don't agree that the data really supports it as written. The perceived off flavors they show (on slide 24) are for very low pitch rates. If the conclusion read "Lower fermentation temperatures combined with underpitching increased fermentation time and the perception of certain off flavors," I'd be inclined to maybe buy it. It's well known that underpitching is a no-no for cold fermentations. But, they don't show the same perception data for the other trials for comparison. Also curiously, although diacetyl was the big perceived off-flavor, the lab data shows diacetyl was below flavor threshhold in all trials.

I wonder why the actual white paper no longer seems to be available.

ETA: Lest anyone misunderstand me, I don't mean to imply that 34/70 can't make good beer at warmish temps. I've tasted plenty of good ones. If there were one lager yeast I'd be willing to use warm (if I couldn't do cold), it would be this strain. But since I can do cold, I'll continue to do cold. I might reconsider that if/when warm fermented lagers start taking BOS medals. If/when that happens, I predict it will be 34/70 that does it.

 

[AlexKay]

There's this link from the Master Brewers Podcast:
Profiling 34/70
where they spend ~40 minutes discussing the results. The presentation itself is behind the MBAA paywall, unfortunately.