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Old 01-30-2011, 07:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Brew_Master View Post
There is no precedent for homebrewers......
Actually, the ATF has said many times that freeze distillation is fine AS LONG AS THE final ABV does not exceed the maximum level you might expect to get from yeast.

The ATF says that maximum level is 24% abv.

What this means, specifically, is they do not care if you freeze-distilled hard cider into 24% abv Applejack, or just used wine yeast to also achieve the same ABV.

The home-brew laws were written as such that you can use any method to reach that 24%. Above that and you are not making beer/wine (according to the government).
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:56 AM   #32
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no precedent means nobody has ever been arrested for having ice beer or applejack no matter the ABV, plus

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Originally Posted by MedsenFey View Post
Freeze concentration at home is not prohibited for beer or winemaking. With beer there is no legal limit to the ABV, as there is not point at which a beer is not considered to "beer."
what if i mix some beer & strong spirit(store bought) to get a 40%ABV ice beer, because its over 24% is the ATF gonna say its not beer?
or what if I have a super mutant yeast that can ferment to 25%, if they say thats not beer then the ATF and the government can kiss my ass.
The point is that there is a law prohibiting distilling spirits without a license, so if you are not using a still to separate the alcohol vapors your applejack or icebeer is legal.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:09 AM   #33
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the point isn't if its legal or not because some stupid ATF guy can bust you if he's crazy enough to do it,the point is can it be proven or not and it can't because you can just say

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i mix some beer & strong spirit(store bought) to get a 40%ABV ice beer.
there are plenty of stupid laws out there that can't be enforced just check this out:http://www.idiotlaws.com/dont-drink-...hile-standing/
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:17 AM   #34
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Cidah mastah... love ur input but gotta ask?? Ever crank through a rocks glass of johnny walker blue? Or glenn fiord highland scotch? Some people like the grimace the character and warmth that goes with a sip of something that equals eight times the strength of our raw product.

Now about the fusel alcohols I am finding all these claims on here extremely circumstantial. I would love to see something more detailed and perhaps peer reviewed about the life cycle and effects of the derivative. Some places say it just causes hangovers and some say it causes blindness. Confused. ABSOLUTELY LOVE the idea that freeze concentrating also concentrates the flavors present as opposed the the illegal distillation.
I drink my scotch and whiskey neat. Like I said, if it were legal I would have a still. My favorite whiskey is Eagle rare 10 year old 46.5% - love the stuff.

This is in response to the general not you becon,

If you want to do this stuff go ahead and do it, but parading around on a forum is a stupid way to advertise your motives, IMO.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:20 AM   #35
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Check out Annie Proulx and Ben Watson. They get rather detailed about this process, and its' dangers. This is considered "fractal distillation" and IS illegal in the U.S. Remember this, ever hear the term "Scrumpy"? Well, this term is an old appellation for cider before people knew about nutrients needed for proper fermentation, so when their fermentation stuck they would add a piece of beef or mutton to their cider barrel. This did act as a nitrogen source to complete fermentation, but I understand the results were vile.
Precisely - for all the people who don't think there are risks - you are only kidding yourself.


g 'head and brew it drink some if you want - just don't preach its safety when you don't know it for fact!
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:27 AM   #36
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To settle this legal thing, i contacted the ATF here in Denver, and they said something like this "People call us all the time and ask us this. It has never been decided in a court of law whether this process is, in fact, distilling. There is no precedent for homebrewers in Denver as to whether a case has been tried. However, it is very unlikely that Denver has the resources to peruse criminal charges on a case that would probably be ruled legitimate homebrewing by the judge. I would suggest to you that it is, in fact, probably legal, because there has been no precedent set against it. We've been making a distinction to our agents and telling them freeze concentration is legal."
so don't worry,be happy,have a home icebeer
Too bad Denver is a STATE government. FEDERAL government presides, thus..... felony


If you guys would read how the process works.... Freeze distillation used for brewing ice beer happens.... (wait for it).... BEFORE the fermentation. This prevents any issues with concentrated methanol and other nasties. It just makes a stronger beer like if you were to add more dme to an extract home brew. You remove the water before fermentation thus concentrating the sugar = more alcohol.

Point is, you run into potential troubles with you remove water after the fact.

Like I said, all you guys are so sure that you are right, go ahead and do it. Just don't act like there aren't risks. You don't understand the process, and you pretend you do.

See if I was making it I wouldn't be worried. I would do the research and take the care to perfect a product that is not only safe, but like a Johnny wlker blue, something special and delicious. Some guys seem to be coming onto the forum with a frat guy mentality - "dude, I tried it once it is safe, trust me bro - let's get really drunk". That just sounds like darwinism in process to me - ha
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by CidahMastah View Post
If you guys would read how the process works.... Freeze distillation used for brewing ice beer happens.... (wait for it).... BEFORE the fermentation. This prevents any issues with concentrated methanol and other nasties. It just makes a stronger beer like if you were to add more dme to an extract home brew. You remove the water before fermentation thus concentrating the sugar = more alcohol.

Like I said, all you guys are so sure that you are right, go ahead and do it. Just don't act like there aren't risks. You don't understand the process, and you pretend you do.
Like you're some sort of biochemist and know every thing there is to know about fermentation when you make beer or wine,I never pretended to be an expert but you don't have to fully understand the process to do it.
And actually according to wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_beer)
"The process of "icing" beer involves lowering the temperature of a batch of beer until ice crystals form. Since alcohol has a lower freezing point than water and doesn't form crystals, when the ice is filtered off, the alcohol concentration increases. The process is known as "fractional freezing"."
just look at eisbock(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisbock#Eisbock) it "ranges from 9% to 43% by volume" so I don't think it's frozen before fermentation.

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See if I was making it I wouldn't be worried. I would do the research and take the care to perfect a product that is not only safe, but like a Johnny wlker blue, something special and delicious. Some guys seem to be coming onto the forum with a frat guy mentality - "dude, I tried it once it is safe, trust me bro - let's get really drunk". That just sounds like darwinism in process to me - ha
oh so now you're saying that you wouldn't be worried if you made it but the rest of us are idiots and cant, like I said I never claimed to be an expert and I even recommended books like The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible and The Compleat Distiller, I started to read the e-books Brew_Master provided and they are great
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thanks but I already found a bunch of e-books here:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6133...illation_Books
I recommend the Sony PRS-505 and you will never read a regular book again. I love being able to carry around a complete library in my pocket. The e-ink technology is amazing, such high resolution that you can't hardly tell that the font is digital.
sorry for the
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:26 PM   #38
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oh an about "Too bad Denver is a STATE government. FEDERAL government presides, thus..... felony" until I hear about the ATF busting someone for brewing applejack or ice beer I'll consider it legal like so many do,no still no conviction, after all this isn't 100 proof moonshine it's just good all american applejack.

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Old 01-31-2011, 06:33 PM   #39
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hey guys calm down, its no use arguing over something so trivial,some people say it's ok some say it's not, in the end one group can't force the way they think on the other.
plus the local authorities told me they wont bother to peruse criminal charges on a case like that and thats all I need to know so so don't worry,be happy,have a homebrew

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Old 01-31-2011, 07:45 PM   #40
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You kill me heini haha - just go do it if you are so sure. Why does my opinion matter?

I never said I understood it on the level of a biochemist, but you have even less an idea than me. I can tell because you think you are bullet proof. You "think" it works like this or that. Classic example of someone starting a hobby and thinking they know it all with zero experience doing it.

Here you are all getting hot tempered... chill out.

I never called any of you idiots - I simply asked you to not act as an authority on a matter you clearly don't understand, thus giving others bad ideas who may not be as careful or thoughtful as they should.

be as irresponsible as you like, just don't drag others into it. Go forth an conquer sir.

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