help w/ a diagram for my electrician?

i had a rims tube system and then i sold it cause i wanted more from it. so i sold it and now im trying to build a system thats more capable up brewing between 5 gal. batches to biab to a 30 gal. batch. im looking for a panel that requires:

240v
50a
PID for HLT keggle with a 5500w element
PID for BK 25 gal. pot with a 5500w element
2 chugger pumps.

i want keep the switches simple w/out all the lights. a simple toggle switch will do and fuses, and an E-Stop is a must.

i like the idea of breaker switches in the panel as well.

will this work for the type of build im asking?

what amp does the switches need to be?

im shopping for parts right now, but 1 question. is a contactor needed to fire up the elements? my previous build only used ssr's

Contactor is for safety. It allows you to disable both phases of 220V power to the element when not in use.

With a 50A power source you should be able to run 2 elements at the same time. The design you linked uses a switch to Enable HLT OR Boil kettle but not both.

Also for 30 gallon batches you will probably need 2 heating elements in each vessel so get a large panel with room for extra SSRs and connectors.

inda_bebe said:

im trying to build a system thats more capable up brewing between 5 gal. batches to biab to a 30 gal. batch.

Click to expand...

A system that can handle 30 gallon batches is going to be way too big for 5 gallons and a system that is appropriate for a 5 gallon batch is going to be way too little for a 30 gallon batch. You should make up your mind on what you will be doing because there is a lot of variables at play when it comes to this wide of a range.

inda_bebe said:

im shopping for parts right now, but 1 question. is a contactor needed to fire up the elements? my previous build only used ssr's

Click to expand...

Without a contactor (or high amp switches) you do not have a way to isolate the heating elements. That makes it risky IMHO.

P-J

jCOSbrew said:

The design you linked uses a switch to Enable HLT OR Boil kettle but not both.

Click to expand...

good thing you saw that. if i just eliminated that switch i should be able to do both, right? or i can put 2 switches to turn on/off each one or both at the same time?

I did not have a contactor originally in my build, but added it later.

I SSR controls only one leg of the 240V circuit. The other leg will always be hot. I am working from memory here but this still allows 1/4 of the potential power to be supplied to the heating element. I may be wrong but there is still a 120V being fed towards the heating element. The contactor is a large magnet switch. When you add power to it (it only take a little bit of 120V power to close this switch, thus your switches don't need to be very high amperage) the magnet pulls the switch closed allowing both legs of the 240 to feed downline towards the SSR and heating element.

inda_bebe said:

good thing you saw that. if i just eliminated that switch i should be able to do both, right? or i can put 2 switches to turn on/off each one or both at the same time?

Click to expand...

You could have a switch or button for each. Here is a 50A drawing that is similar to the original you posted

jCOSbrew said:

Also for 30 gallon batches you will probably need 2 heating elements in each vessel so get a large panel with room for extra SSRs and connectors.

Click to expand...

That is what I was thinking as well. Although I don't know that he would need a dual element in the HLT. At first I only had one element in my BK and would do all my heating in it. My HLT is a cooler and during the mash I would heat water for the HLT and pump it up there. The HLT element was added later and used in conjunction with BK to heat up water faster for the initial mash, then to keep sparge water to temp after heating in the BK to temp before transfer to the HLT.

For a 30 gallon setup, I would consider a BK with two 5500W elements and an HLT with one 5500W element or even smaller. A 3 way switch on the panel can let you choose between the second BK element or the HLT element to make sure you are only running 2 elements at once. I got some really slick 3 way rotary switches in my panel that I like but can't remember where I got them from.

Another thing to keep in mind. The first drawing is set up with a 40A power feed. With that, you can only fire one element at a time. The second diagram uses a 50A feed.

Here are the switches I used.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...a-_Non-Illuminated/Non-Illuminated/GCX3320-22

These are 3 way switches that give you a lot of options on how to control your panel. If these are not what you need the company has most any kind of switch you can imagine.

Not a hijack, but a quick parenthetical question for P-J,

I've learned a lot from studying your diagrams as well as those of other e-brewers who have been building their control panels. I've been meaning to ask about something I see an a lot of schematics. For example, in the the schematic for the current thread:



1. One of the hot legs (often the red one in your drawings) goes solely to one side of the element. For lack of knowing proper terminology, I refer to this as the switched side of the element circuit - being switched by the SSR and often also going thru a contactor.

2. The other hot leg (often the blue one in your drawings) is the side from which you draw all the 120V circuits: pump, lights, alarms, PID power, controlling circuits for contactors, etc, in addition to being the other side of the element circuit.

3. Understood that any 220V 4-wire supply provides a single 220V circuit (red/blue) and two 110V circuits (red/white and blue/white) with each circuit being protected by a breaker.

I recently saw an e-build diagram in which the builder divided the 110V components between the 2 110V circuits.

In a 220-240V control panel that also contains 110-120V components, is there a point at which you place some of these components on one of the 110-120V circuits and some on the other? - perhaps a 110-120V element installed in a RIMS or a similar application?

In your drawing, is it that 1-2 pumps, PIDs, contactor coils, and indicator lights draw so little current that, by convention, it's easier to place them all on one leg?

Thanks,
Keith

kzimmer0817 said:

Not a hijack, but a quick parenthetical question for P-J,

...

I recently saw an e-build diagram in which the builder divided the 110V components between the 2 110V circuits.

In a 220-240V control panel that also contains 110-120V components, is there a point at which you place some of these components on one of the 110-120V circuits and some on the other? - perhaps a 110-120V element installed in a RIMS or a similar application?

In your drawing, is it that 1-2 pumps, PIDs, contactor coils, and indicator lights draw so little current that, by convention, it's easier to place them all on one leg?

Thanks,
Keith

Click to expand...

Dividing the power can be easily accomplished. It would require another 120V circuit breaker to do that wth the displayed diagrams.

bknifefight said:

You could have a switch or button for each. Here is a 50A drawing that is similar to the original you posted

Click to expand...

i can use this diagram and the whole spa panel thing im seeing all over isnt needed, right? this can plug into my 240v 50a outlet? i agree with the second diagram. and i now might consider using 2 elements for the boil, but when its time to boil the 30gal. wort, ill just unplug the HLT pid and plug in the second BK element. all just to cut costs as much as i can

inda_bebe said:

i can use this diagram and the whole spa panel thing im seeing all over isnt needed, right? this can plug into my 240v 50a outlet?

Click to expand...

The only way to avoid the spa panel is to put a GFCI CB in your actual home CB panel. The GFCI protects you from being shocked to death if there is any short in the system.

The reason I used a spa panel built directly into my control panel was it was cheaper and easier to find than a GFCI CB for my home CB panel.

P-J said:

Dividing the power can be easily accomplished. It would require another 120V circuit breaker to do that wth the displayed diagrams.

Click to expand...

Thank you, PJ, I understood "how" to do it. My question was more of: is there a point at which you "need" to divide up the 120V components between the two 120V sides? This is, apparently, not an issue in the vast majority of the builds for which you have provided schematics - or your expertise/knowledge would have drawn it that way.

I imagine that this would be important once the total current draw of whatever pumps, contactors, PIDs, indicator lights, etc could conceivably be on a the same time exceeds the 15A 120V breaker, you would need to divide them up between the two legs of the original 240V circuit with each being protected by an appropriate breaker.

Thanks,
Keith

inda_bebe said:

i now might consider using 2 elements for the boil, but when its time to boil the 30gal. wort, ill just unplug the HLT pid and plug in the second BK element. all just to cut costs as much as i can

Click to expand...

If you want to cut costs, you can build your rig in phases. I started with a big old computer box and only had a PID, SSR and one 240 outlet when I started. The one element in the BK provided water for initial mash. I then heated up water for sparging and carried it to the HLT up a step ladder carrying a pot of hot water at a time. Fortunately my panel was laid out well enough by accident to add components as needed and still look nice.

I would build your panel in phases if expense as a concern rather than take a shortcut requiring you to rewire 240V circuits mid brew. For the cost of a 3 way switch, a contactor and an outlet you could switch between HLT and second BK element.

kzimmer0817 said:

Thank you, PJ, I understood "how" to do it. My question was more of: is there a point at which you "need" to divide up the 120V components between the two 120V sides? This is, apparently, not an issue in the vast majority of the builds for which you have provided schematics - or your expertise/knowledge would have drawn it that way.

I imagine that this would be important once the total current draw of whatever pumps, contactors, PIDs, indicator lights, etc could conceivably be on a the same time exceeds the 15A 120V breaker, you would need to divide them up between the two legs of the original 240V circuit with each being protected by an appropriate breaker.

Thanks,
Keith

Click to expand...

Why not just pull in another 120V line in to provide for all your 120V needs and not worry about its drain from the 240 circuit?

kzimmer0817 said:

Thank you, PJ, I understood "how" to do it. My question was more of: is there a point at which you "need" to divide up the 120V components between the two 120V sides? This is, apparently, not an issue in the vast majority of the builds for which you have provided schematics - or your expertise/knowledge would have drawn it that way.

I imagine that this would be important once the total current draw of whatever pumps, contactors, PIDs, indicator lights, etc could conceivably be on a the same time exceeds the 15A 120V breaker, you would need to divide them up between the two legs of the original 240V circuit with each being protected by an appropriate breaker.

Thanks,
Keith

Click to expand...

In theory you could get a little more power if you split it up. Your main breaker will trip if either leg exceeds the power rating. So if you had a 50 amp circuit and needed 35 for your elements you you could get up to 30 amps of 120, 15 from each pole. But the reality is most systems don't need that much 120 power.

It would not be too difficult to tally up all of the amperage draws for the 120v components, use the start-up amperage for pumps and any other motor, and see explicitly what you have. If that total, plus the element amperage draw, does not exceed your circuit rating, then there is no need to split the 120v components between the hot legs. If it does, then you only need to move enough off of one circuit so that each circuit does not exceed your rating. Of course, you could balance it evenly if you wanted, but functionally it would not make a difference.