All grain beer coming out too dark?

So in have seen a few threads say that extract beers tends to come out darker but nothing on AG. I think my beers usually come out a bit darker (but still good) but its very noticeable in lighter beers like a blonde or BGS. For example my BGS is nothing but pilsner malt and sugar. I added the sugar during fermentation by dissolving it in hot water then just barley bringing it to a boil before cooling. Any ideas? I use a aluminum brew pot and 60-90 min boil depending on beer.

Without pictures this thread is not going to be real helpful IMO. I can't imagine an all pilsner malt beer coming out too dark....Not to mention, what is "too dark" in regards to your BGS?

Higher grain bills produce darker beers. A Belgian Golden Strong @ 9.5% ABV is not going to be as light colored as a 4% blonde ale.

Beersmith predicts its going to be almost clear (like a Duvel) but its really about the color of pale ale like sierrra Nevada.

Do you see any scorching on the bottom of your kettle? Sometimes the heat from a burner can gets focused on one spot and scorch the wort.


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Editor
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Jsbeckton said:

Beersmith predicts its going to be almost clear (like a Duvel) but its really about the color of pale ale like sierrra Nevada.

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It's also about 8.5 percent so very similar to Duvel.

A cheap pot can definitely lead to darkening. You get hot spots on the bottom an uneven heating.

I have never noticed any scorched spots on the bottom of the pot.

Is your thermometer calibrated? maybe mashing too high and extracting too much color, or using too little water and concentrating wort?

alane1 said:

Is your thermometer calibrated? maybe mashing too high and extracting too much color, or using too little water and concentrating wort?

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Use a thermopen that is spot on for temp. If the water was off the gravity would be off too but it hasn't been.

Jsbeckton said:

Beersmith predicts its going to be almost clear (like a Duvel) but its really about the color of pale ale like sierrra Nevada.

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Maybe you need to calibrate your BS numbers a bit better.

I have run into some discrepancies between BS and my results as well and when I dialed in BS a bit tighter it fixed the issue.

An all pilsener malt beer at 90 minutes of boiling should be very, very light. I rather wonder if there's some scorched or congealed wort in your valve or tubing somewhere (e.g. inside the threads or underneath it).

I personally don't think its even likely in the least that you would "scorch" the wort within the kettle, particularly not on an aluminum pot. Aluminum cookware is valued for even heat distribution, which is why you see "sandwich bottomed" pots - steel is not nearly as conductive of heat, but it is also not reactive to acids. You mostly see scorching when you add difficult to dissolve substances that sit on the bottom of the pot, e.g. dumping LME into a hard boil.

However, perhaps you're boiling really hard, leading to more color development via Maillard and caramelization reactions. J.W. Lee's Harvest Ale, for example, is a Maris Otter SMASH - all of the color is due to boiling really hard for a long time (although you say you're only doing 60-90, so I don't know there).

Are you judging the color in a glass or in a carboy?

This is not a kettle issue. Bobby M makes a good point about judging color in a glass vs the fermenter.

One thing to know about all-grain brewing is that a high wort pH can lead to darkening in the kettle. Do you know anything about the composition of your water (hardness or alkalinity in particular)?

I am judging color based on hydrometer and glass samples, not Carboy. I have not had my water tested but I do use those ph strips in the mash and it looks ok. Not sure how accurate those are.

Where are you getting your pilsner malt? Never know, it could have got mixed up with something darker. I've had it happen...

Beersmith and other programs are notoriously bad at getting color right. Getting your system as close to accurate as you can. How clear is your beer? Crystal clear commercial beers color will appear lighter than a hazy homebrew.

Using dingemans pilsner malt and have brewed this recipe 2x with nearly the same color as a result. Also I use gelatin so the beer is crystal clear. How does Duvel get is so light if that is what pilsner malt looks like after 90min boil? I know they have a vastly different mashing routine but does that make a big difference in color?

If your all pilsner malt beer is coming out the color of Sierra Nevada, either you're scorching it or you're not using the malt you think you're using. I've never heard of the color being affected much in the mash. ...
Try buying your malt from a different source next time. If that doesn't change it try less heat during your boil, just enough to keep it barely boiling...

Demus said:

If your all pilsner malt beer is coming out the color of Sierra Nevada, either you're scorching it or you're not using the malt you think you're using. I've never heard of the color being affected much in the mash. ...
Try buying your malt from a different source next time. If that doesn't change it try less heat during your boil, just enough to keep it barely boiling...

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Pot doesn't show signs of scorching and given its been the same both times when buying the malt a year apart it doesn't seem a malt mixup is likely. Guess I'd rather deal with the color rather than DMS due to a lack of vigorous boil though.

Full boil or partial boil? I don't know if it makes a difference but it might.
When I've done Weyermen's pilsner malt in 90 min full boils it looks very very light. I could see your BGS being darker because the malt is more concentrated.
It sounds like your sure that you don't have crystal or aromatic malts. So it is still a bit of a mystery.

Yeah, full 90 min boil. Driving me crazy that I can't seem to figure out what it is.

beer smith has always come out dark for me.
Other people dont agree but in my experience it does

This is from the base malt experiment I did. The Belgian Pilsner malt is in the left sample at 1.085 OG. Does that seem to match what you're getting?





There was a suggestion in that thread that my water may be causing the darkening. I've since gotten a water analysis, read the Water book, and started treating my highly bicarbonate well water. I'm hoping to do a side by side experiment at the holidays on untreated vs treated well water and RO. The Belgian Pilsner will be the base malt used.

Yeah, I'd say that mine is very similar to your pilsner sample there. Would be interested in seeing if your sample changes with treated water.

One issue, or trick, that I sometimes use is to start heating my first runoff as soon as I have a gallon in the BK. I do this intentionally to get some of the malliard reactions that add flavor, but also color. I find that if I runoff off both mash and sparge completely BEFORE I even fire the BK, my beers come out much lighter in color. I think your boiling technique can drastically effect color, either intentionally or otherwise.

Here is a sample, a little lighter than last sample bit still darker than Duvel. I do start heating my wort after about 3-5 gallons so that might be part of he prob.

That looks quite light to me. . I'd recommend trying a few different pilsner malts from different maltsters. You should find differences between them. These are from Northern Brewer's site:

Breiss 1.2L
Rahr 1.5-2.0
Belgian 1.6
Weyermann Bohemian 1.7-2.1
Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian 1.6-2.0
German 1.6
Best Malz 1.4-2.0

It's a small neighborhood, but there is some variation in their specs and surely in reality when you figure different barley varieties come into play. Would be worth making some teas to compare. But I'd focus on flavor before fretting on color when choosing a malt.

From the photo, I can't judge clarity too well. But that would also be enough to make yours appear darker than a crystal clear commercial one.

Actually it has darkened slightly as it has cleared because the yeast is a very pale color it was actual lightening the beer a touch.

If that is the same color everyone else is getting with Dingemans pilsner malt than I am fine with that, guess getting it the color of Duvel is a secret of the Moortgats!