Repitching at Bottling Time

Hey folks,
I've had two beers get 1/2 carbed this year. Really frustrating. I've kept them warm, I've swirled them to get the yeast back in suspension. Nothing. Both have had smaller than expected dustings of yeast at the bottom of the bottle. One of the offending beers was a pretty strong 8% Tripel (so you can excuse the yeast for being tired...and poisoned), but the other was just a 5% beer.

On both of these beers, I've been really careful not to pick up any trub when racking to the bottling bucket. On other beers this year, I was less careful, and sucked up a small portion of trub. Needless to say, those batches carbed beautifully. I know this shouldn't matter. I know there should be plenty of yeast in suspension without picking up the trub, but the results say otherwise.

So, I'm thinking of repitching at bottling time, rather than picking up a bunch of crud from the trub.

I happen to have a pouch of US-05 lying around. If I rehydrated that and pitched it, would it be way too much yeast? Should I make an itty-bitty starter to acclimate it before tossing it into a heavily hopped 8% beer?? What about pitching liquid yeast? Would that need a starter?

Also, is there any way this could be a Whirlfloc problem? Could that be dropping too much yeast out of the beer? Clarifying too much??

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

before you do anything. how long did you leave the bottles to carb? what temp did you carb at? lots of factors including the phase of the moon and alignment of the planets can affect how fast your beer carbs.


if you do decide to add yeast you don't need a starter. in fact if i remember correctly you don't need a full packet of yeast (although it wont hurt if you do). use the same yeast you used in the batch in the first place.

Tipsy's right....it is rare to ever need to add ANY yeast a bottling time. Unless it's been in secondary for like a year. If your beer is only half carbing, then you aren't waiting long enough for them to carb up.

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

Sorry, I should have given all that info. Both 1/2 carbed beers are in my house, which hovers between 68F and 72F all year round. The 5% beer has been 1/2 carbed for about three or four months, and the other for two full weeks. Both were carbed with 4oz of dextrose made into a simple syrup that the beer was racked onto at bottling time (there do not seem be some bottles that are over carbed and some under). All bottles are cleaned with oxyclean, and sanitized with StarSan, then hung on the bottle tree.

Now that I think of it, I don't cool the simple syrup. Just dump it in the bottom of the bucket and rack onto it. Could that be too hot, and killing the yeast?

I have this same problem. Beer that's been above 70 for close to 2 months that has simply not carbed. I've left them in secondary/tertiary (racking off dry hop) for 1-2 months, which may have something to do with it, but nowhere close to a year.

Revvy, would you suggest that those of us experiencing inconsistent carbing have some other problem going on? Because I've had this problem with both priming solution and carb tabs directly in the bottle.

Revvy, thanks for the words of wisdom.
Normally, I'd roll over on this, because you're clearly right.
What's bugging me is this:
Pick up some trub = carbed in 1 to 2 weeks (though probably still pretty green)
Don't pick up some trub = carbed next to never.

So, I'm hoping for a technique that gets me "pick up trub" results, without the downside.

bernerbrau said:

Revvy, would you suggest that those of us experiencing inconsistent carbing have some other problem going on? Because I've had this problem with both priming solution and carb tabs directly in the bottle.

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No...really unless you are using grolsh bottles and/or your bottles have bad seals.

those notions of not thoroughly mixing the carb sugar at bottling time are really just theories, it does a good job of mixing on it's own..some folks stir, some don't. some rack over half and add the rest, some don't...and most folks who come back months later in their bottling thread say that after waiting the beer did carb fine..about 99.5% of the time

I have NEVER had a beer not fully carb, even if it took 3 months like my belgian strong ale.

im probably barking up the wrong tree here. grab the caps with a hand cloth and try to turn them. they shouldn't move at all. i've had problems where some bottles in a batch where carbed and others where not. i noticed that the ones that where flat or not quite carbed had slightly loose caps.

i've often wondered if using warm (not hot) sanitizer would help with this. my theory is that the warm water would cause the caps to expand. then when they cool after caping they seal tighter.

wendelgee2 said:

Revvy, thanks for the words of wisdom.
Normally, I'd roll over on this, because you're clearly right.
What's bugging me is this:
Pick up some trub = carbed in 1 to 2 weeks (though probably still pretty green)
Don't pick up some trub = carbed next to never.

So, I'm hoping for a technique that gets me "pick up trub" results, without the downside.

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You are creating a logical fallacy by associating trub with carbonation (look up "post hoc ergo propter hoc" ) it really has no bearing on whether or not a beer carbs up. For example I had a pumpkin beer that due to bottling wand issues picked up aboput 3/4- 1" of pumpkin and trub in the bottom of the bottles....they still carbed up just as fine.

The only real things that affect carbonation is gravity, amount of sugar, storage temp and time.

wendelgee2 said:

Now that I think of it, I don't cool the simple syrup. Just dump it in the bottom of the bucket and rack onto it. Could that be too hot, and killing the yeast?

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No, many many folks drop their boiling sugar into the bucket, it is cooling as it falls, plus it is rapidly going to be cooled by 5 gallons of beer falling on top of it. You can't kill the yeast that way.....99% of the yeasty beer is not going to come into contact with boiling sugar.

One thing to do on your next batch of beer...try all these things and see if you have improvement.

1) Let sugar cool a bit (not that I think it matters, but for the sake of trying it differently)

2) Pour half in bottom of bucket.

3) make sure racking hose is in bottom of bucket in such a way that it is "hugging" the curved sides of the bucket so that the beer will flow out in a spiralling motion to swirl the beer and priming solution, and mix it together on it's own.

4)Just as you start your racking over, scrape the bottom of your autospihon/racking cane along the bottom of your fermenter/secondary (one stroke back and forth is enough) to kick up some yeast and transfer it over. I usually do it for about a minute, then lift the autosiphon up above til it runs clear again, and lover it back into the bottom, it will cloud for a few seconds then a runnel will be formed and it will run clear again.

5)When you get to 2.5 gallons add the remaining priming solution to the bucket.

6)Bottle as normal, but make sure you crimp really tightly (even dimple it if you want, this way you rule out anything about not tight enough camps.)

7)Make sure they are in a place that is ALWAYS above 70, not vasiliating into the 60's. If it does ever go below 70 in your space wrap a blanket or a sleeping bags around the boxes.

8)Riddle the bottles on the 7th and 14th days (upend them once to re-suspend the yeast/ trub)

9) Don't bother openning any of them til it's been 4 weeks for a 10.60 and below Og, and 6 weeks for anything up to 10.80 Anythig over 1.080 wait 8 weeks.

And see what happens....this is probably OVERKILL...but it should nearly gaurentee that none of those reasons you all THINK cause it are happening in your batches.

Good luck.

Do you think adding gelatin prior to bottling can affect carbing rates. I added gelatin to two batches and carbing seemed to be slower. I can't testify as to total carbanation level as my impatience outlasted the batch.

bigdug said:

Do you think adding gelatin prior to bottling can affect carbing rates. I added gelatin to two batches and carbing seemed to be slower. I can't testify as to total carbanation level as my impatience outlasted the batch.

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That I can't help you with...well the first part (I can just steal your beer next time and give it back to you in a month)

I've never felt the need to add gelatin or any post fermentation finings to my beer. A month in primary, and my beer is clear enough. So I don't know if gelatin would slow it down, but it might.

I had the same problem with a forever undercarbed beer that never came around. I also had a bottle of pac man in the fridge. For my last few batches i just swirl the pac man and pour in just a little slurry right after the sugar soup and it's perfect every time. I know I shouldn't have to theoretically. But if it works every time why not?

tdoft said:

I had the same problem with a forever undercarbed beer that never came around. I also had a bottle of pac man in the fridge. For my last few batches i just swirl the pac man and pour in just a little slurry right after the sugar soup and it's perfect every time. I know I shouldn't have to theoretically. But if it works every time why not?

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When the pros bottle condition, they do this as well, correct? Filter out the old yeast, add a fresh pitch...or a bit of krausen from another batch.

tdoft said:

I had the same problem with a forever undercarbed beer that never came around. I also had a bottle of pac man in the fridge. For my last few batches i just swirl the pac man and pour in just a little slurry right after the sugar soup and it's perfect every time. I know I shouldn't have to theoretically. But if it works every time why not?

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Forever is a long long time, how long did you really wait to see if it would carb?

Revvy said:

Forever is a long long time, how long did you really wait to see if it would carb?

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I don't know about everyone else but I've had at least one batch that has only half-carbed after 2 months. Not a high gravity batch either.

Revvy
I have one bottle left of this batch. It was brewed a about 3 months ago and I'm praying that this last bottle will finally carb if given time. I'll wait another couple months and see.
Thing is, I don't really want to wait that long to drink my beer. I'm a hophead and I think a beer that's been in a bottle for four weeks ought to be good to go. With my technique of adding a touch of yeast at bottling it works everytime-just like Colt 45-gasp!

I guess that I have been lucky. I have bottled 17 batches, and they all have had good carbonation at one week and my basement temps are usually in the mid to upper 60's. I do notice that there is some improvement with carbonation and the quality of the head as time goes by. Also, I try to carb each beer to style so I am not just dumping 5 oz of sugar blindly into each batch. Hope I didn't just jinx myself!

Sorry I had nothing of value to add.

I think I have it figured out. I've been using a vinator to sanitize my bottles lately, and quite a bit of foam is left behind. Enough that in some bottles there's a quarter inch or more of liquid in the bottom when the foam coalesces.

I'm wondering if, since I'm not measuring out precise ratios, I'm (a) mixing too high a concentration of starsan and (b) leaving too much behind and killing the yeast in the process.

bernerbrau said:

I think I have it figured out. I've been using a vinator to sanitize my bottles lately, and quite a bit of foam is left behind. Enough that in some bottles there's a quarter inch or more of liquid in the bottom when the foam coalesces.

I'm wondering if, since I'm not measuring out precise ratios, I'm (a) mixing too high a concentration of starsan and (b) leaving too much behind and killing the yeast in the process.

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I think you're still grasping at straws buddy....At normal concentration starsan foam becomes yeast food, and should actually HELP in carbonation. Not decrease it. I don't know how much over the typical concentration becomes lethal to yeast, but I doubt you are near it.

Millions of brewers use vinators, and leave a ton of foam (including me) and don't have ANY problems. So if that's the case, how come we don't have a problem and you do??????

The key can't be something that most brewers do and have no issues with...it has to be something else. Otherwise we wouldn't be using starsan to bottle.

I have the foam rising out of my bottles just like we show in fermenters. The beer rises and the foam rushes on top and out of the bottle.

Revvy said:

I think you're still grasping at straws buddy....At normal concentration starsan foam becomes yeast food, and should actually HELP in carbonation. Not decrease it. I don't know how much over the typical concentration becomes lethal to yeast, but I doubt you are near it.

Millions of brewers use vinators, and leave a ton of foam (including me) and don't have ANY problems. So if that's the case, how come we don't have a problem and you do??????

The key can't be something that most brewers do and have no issues with...it has to be something else. Otherwise we wouldn't be using starsan to bottle.

I have the foam rising out of my bottles just like we show in fermenters. The beer rises and the foam rushes on top and out of the bottle.

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I am grasping at straws, because I can't figure out why I'm having such inconsistent carbonation across every batch for the last couple of months.

And according to some people, the inconsistent carbonation I'm having just doesn't happen...

bernerbrau said:

I am grasping at straws, because I can't figure out why I'm having such inconsistent carbonation across every batch for the last couple of months.

And according to some people, the inconsistent carbonation I'm having just doesn't happen...

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Well, it usually doesn't

99.995% of the time, we bottle and come back 3-4 weeks later and all is well. And the noobs who we tell to wait come back after 4-6 weeks and their beer is fine. And like I said, I have never had a beer NOT carb up, but as you know I am willing to sit on a beer 6 months or more, so patience has never been a problem with me.

I want you to go step by step through your bottling process, going into as much detail as possible. In numbered steps (with plenty of space between so us old guys can actually read everythng) OUTLINE your process. Maybe we can figure it out systematically.

And also next batch bottle like I suggest above and see if that works out.

Revvy said:

Well, it usually doesn't

99.995% of the time, we bottle and come back 3-4 weeks later and all is well. And the noobs who we tell to wait come back after 4-6 weeks and their beer is fine. And like I said, I have never had a beer NOT carb up, but as you know I am willing to sit on a beer 6 months or more, so patience has never been a problem with me.

I want you to go step by step through your bottling process, going into as much detail as possible. In numbered steps (with plenty of space between so us old guys can actually read everythng) OUTLINE your process. Maybe we can figure it out systematically.

And also next batch bottle like I suggest above and see if that works out.

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Well, ok.

(0) Assume the beer has been sitting in 1-3 fermenters for 2-3 months. 2 fermenters if I decided to use a secondary, 3 if I decided to dry hop.
(1) I gather up all my bottles from various storage around the apartment.
(2) I use the bottle jet attached to my sink on high heat to spray out the bottles.
(3) I fill my vinator with water, add a small amount of starsan, and pump it until it's pumping foam.
(4) I pump bombers 16-20 times, and 12-oz bottles 8-12 times, then I shake them out over the sink.
(5) I arrange my bottles on the floor for bottling.
(6) I clean my autosiphon, hose and bottling wand with oxy clean, pump some oxy clean through the hose, then drain and rinse them out with tap water.
(7) I sanitize my autosiphon, hose and bottling wand with a small amount of starsan and water (this is because I use a small bucket and so don't measure the precise amount of starsan). Anything the starsan doesn't touch from submerging, I spray down with a prepared solution.
(8) I move the carboy to the counter, uncap it, and put the siphon in. I attach the hose and the bottling wand, and fill each bottle, pulling out when the liquid level reaches the top.
(9) When the siphon starts to gurgle, I pull out the wand and discard (or drink) the remaining beer in the carboy.
(10) I put 4-5 carb tabs in each 12oz bottle, 7-8 in each bomber.
(11) I lay caps on all my bottles.
(12) I secure the caps with my wing capper.
(13) I put the bottles in storage. (My house never gets below 70).
(14) I pop one bottle at 2 and 3 weeks to monitor carbing process. If it's not carbed at 3, I continue popping bottles once a week. When I get a very good head, I put a bunch in the fridge to chill before serving.

I ignore inconsistent carbonation at this point, but it will commonly persist 1-2 months later.

bernerbrau said:

Well, ok.

(0) Assume the beer has been sitting in 1-3 fermenters for 2-3 months. 2 fermenters if I decided to use a secondary, 3 if I decided to dry hop.
(1) I gather up all my bottles from various storage around the apartment.
(2) I use the bottle jet attached to my sink on high heat to spray out the bottles.
(3) I fill my vinator with water, add a small amount of starsan, and pump it until it's pumping foam.
(4) I pump bombers 16-20 times, and 12-oz bottles 8-12 times, then I shake them out over the sink.
(5) I arrange my bottles on the floor for bottling.
(6) I clean my autosiphon, hose and bottling wand with oxy clean, pump some oxy clean through the hose, then drain and rinse them out with tap water.
(7) I sanitize my autosiphon, hose and bottling wand with a small amount of starsan and water (this is because I use a small bucket and so don't measure the precise amount of starsan). Anything the starsan doesn't touch from submerging, I spray down with a prepared solution.
(8) I move the carboy to the counter, uncap it, and put the siphon in. I attach the hose and the bottling wand, and fill each bottle, pulling out when the liquid level reaches the top.
(9) When the siphon starts to gurgle, I pull out the wand and discard (or drink) the remaining beer in the carboy.
(10) I put 4-5 carb tabs in each 12oz bottle, 7-8 in each bomber.
(11) I lay caps on all my bottles.
(12) I secure the caps with my wing capper.
(13) I put the bottles in storage. (My house never gets below 70).
(14) I pop one bottle at 2 and 3 weeks to monitor carbing process. If it's not carbed at 3, I continue popping bottles once a week. When I get a very good head, I put a bunch in the fridge to chill before serving.

I ignore inconsistent carbonation at this point, but it will commonly persist 1-2 months later.

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Hmmm my biggest concern is the dillution ratio of your stsarsan/water, it doesn't sound very precise, and I wonder IF maybe you are mixing it too strong and that may be harming your bottling yeast. I don't KNOW at what concentration the ph could be harmful (if any) to the yeast.

I calculated it sometime back, but 2ml dilluted into 1 quart of water is the right dillution for a small amount of stasan/water. I have a little medicine eyedropper with graduated markings and will if I am just making up a small batch, or mixiing it in my spray bottle use that amount. But normally on bottling day I will mix up 2.5 gallons of santizer for everything, bottles, bottling bucket, autosiphon, caps, etc.

Also how tight are you capping them? Anychance that you are wimping out and they are not a good seal?

I've never actually used carb tabs so I can't really comment on them, I don't know exactly how much you should use, how long they normally take to carb up, and even if they loses some potency due to age of them, or even humidity.

I would try bottling a batch using bulk priming solution added like I mention above, the usual 4.5-5 ounces boiled in 2 cups of water and cooled slightly.

It may MERELY be an issue with your source of prime tabs. But by changing stuff up next time.

Also brother, If you are keeping your beer that long in primary or secondary, I would definitley do the "kick up soome yeast" from the bottom when rackiing thing. You might actually NOT be getting enough yeast for bottling time.

Revvy said:

Hmmm my biggest concern is the dillution ratio of your stsarsan/water, it doesn't sound very precise, and I wonder IF maybe you are mixing it too strong and that may be harming your bottling yeast. I don't KNOW at what concentration the ph could be harmful (if any) to the yeast.

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Sort of what I'm thinking.

Revvy said:

Also how tight are you capping them? Anychance that you are wimping out and they are not a good seal?

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I'm still getting a minute hiss when I open them, so I assume they're airtight.

Revvy said:

I would try bottling a batch using bulk priming solution added like I mention above, the usual 4.5-5 ounces boiled in 2 cups of water and cooled slightly.

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I've had the same issue with carb tabs and priming solution... so I don't think that's the source of the problem.

Revvy said:

It may MERELY be an issue with your source of prime tabs.

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It's possible. I had been getting carb tabs from the LHBS, my latest I got from BMW (haven't seen how they perform, but it's the same brand and product). But does sugar really convert to something inedible to yeast over time? My particular tabs don't contain any yest.

Revvy said:

Also brother, If you are keeping your beer that long in primary or secondary, I would definitley do the "kick up soome yeast" from the bottom when rackiing thing. You might actually NOT be getting enough yeast for bottling time.

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I did swirl the beer some last night. We'll see if that was enough.

Revvy said:

Also brother, If you are keeping your beer that long in primary or secondary, I would definitley do the "kick up soome yeast" from the bottom when rackiing thing. You might actually NOT be getting enough yeast for bottling time.

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I would agree with the yeast kick up theory. However, you said you are getting a yeast layer in the bottles. Even though this is small, if you are getting one at all, and there is enough priming sugar you should get carb.

The only under carbed bottles I have had either did not have any yeast layer because I multiracked and let lager for too long before bottling, or were in batches where I was dropping the priming sugar too low. This was back when I measured my priming sugar by volume rather than weight which can lead to inconsistency.

The only problems you will have with too much kickup from the secondary or tertiary is the need to drink the beer quickly before the yeast begin to autolyze, about 12-18 months.

If you are getting close the the 12 month mark, and are finding it difficult to finish the beer in time you can send it to me, and I will finish it for you.

slouch said:

I
The only problems you will have with too much kickup from the secondary or tertiary is the need to drink the beer quickly before the yeast begin to autolyze, about 12-18 months.

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Oh god please NOT yeast autolysys again ....even in bottles. Get over it, many many many bottle conditioned beers both commercial or otherwise have been stored and drunk for many many years with no autolysis present.

In the Dec 07 Zymurgy Charlie Papazian reviewed bottles of homebrew going back to the first AHC competition that he had stored, and none of them went bad, some had not held up but most of them he felt were awesome...We're talking over 20 years worth of beers. But there was no discussion of autolysys, or infection or any other boogeyman.

For your own happiness guys, drop any concern about autolysis from your consciouness, in the fermenter, in the bottle, anywhere...It's such a non issue for us. It was never really an issue for us....It was a worst case scenario discussion in Palmer and it was for lager yes there may be autolysis contributing to the flavors in champagne but please for god sakes, just drop it from your beer brewing vocabulary.

Even when Palmer is talking about it, he's talking about it in terms of LAGERS not ales. Most people get so freaked out about in reading Palmer, that they don't notice it is in the Lager chapter, nor do they notice the caveat at the end of the section that I posted above.

I still believe that POSSIBLY autolysis WAS a concern to homebrewers 20-30 years ago, when the yeast came in dry cakes, of dubious heritage and came across from where homebrewing was legalized in the hot cargo holds of ships and may have sat for months in terrible conditioned...In other words was unhealthy to begin with.

And therefore may have crapped out and made for nastiness, (and also was prone to stick fermentation as well.) and tales of it just continued to perpetuate over time, even though yeasts are much more healthy and fresh, and more is understood about them nowaday....people gravitate to the negative and fear and still perpetuate those worries...over and over and over....

And I still maintain that as much as I like Palmer, he contributed to the hysteria.....I mean noone but me seems to notice that that section on the scary autolysis appears in the chapter on lagering. He is not talking about it with ales...or beers in general..just lagers..because flaws are more perceptable in lagers...since in essence most commercial lagers are tasteless...anything would stand out..

and I think most new brewers have crapped themselves at the mere thought long before the notice the closer to the section I mentioned earlier.

Just rdwhahb about the fricken autolysis boys and girls.

[/rant]

Revvy said:

Oh god please NOT yeast autolysys again ....even in bottles. Get over it, many many many bottle conditioned beers both commercial or otherwise have been stored and drunk for many many years with no autolysis present.
[/rant]

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Revvy, I agree there should be no panic here. I have had beer that I have aged so many years the yeast was black, and the flavor was awesome. I did have to be careful in the pour off though, as the black stuff wasn't as tasty as the fresh yeast at the bottom of green beer.

The first point I was making was baring some extreme stir up resulting in massive amounts of yeast at the bottom of the bottle ( and inch or more ) AND very long storage of over a year or so there would be no problem with either stirring up the yeast from the trub, or repitching.

The second point I was making was that if there was any concern after that point I would be willing to sacrifice my taste buds and drink the stuff so that it wouldn't have to get thrown away.

I would like to say that all of these beers that weren't carbonating for me have now carbonated.

It took 3 months in some cases, but they made it. It has been winter, and my apartment is between 62-67*F...so...there you go.

Patience is a virtue.