Diagnosing a cidery beer

gyllstromk · 09-15-2009, 08:44 PM

I tried a bottle of homebrew after 2 weeks in the bottle. Overall the flavor is pleasant, although there is what I perceive to be a cidery element which I'd like to diagnose. After reading a lot about cider off-flavors I've picked out some of the potential problems:

1) Use of 7% cane sugar in the grist. It seems there's disagreement on this issue, as some Belgians have up to 20% sugar. I used it to dry the beer, put it in the late boil. I've had similar amounts in other beers without the same problem.
2) Good temps through the first few days, high temps later. I had it at 65 (ambient) or so for the first few days, then let it ramp up to ambient 80. This is California Ale yeast. I thought that temperature is critical in the first few days, but less after. However, high temps are supposed to be particularly bad for wort with cane sugar.
3) High bottle-conditioning temps. Ambient temp in the house is 80. Again, I was under the impression that temperature was less important for bottle conditioning (at least with respect to off-flavors).
4) Green. The beer fermented for 3 weeks before bottling, then 2 weeks after. It is possible the beer is still "young", but I doubt it, especially since it's a 5.5% ABV beer.
5) Spoiled. I'm doubtful this is the problem.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

homebrewer_99 · 09-15-2009, 09:05 PM

I would think allowing it to ramp up to 80F during the first day or so in the primary would produce a fruitiness that could be interpreted as cidery, but I have to ask, what was your hop schedule?

I've found that most "sweet" brews are mostly underhopped.

Anyone else like to contribute?

gyllstromk · 09-15-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebrewer_99

I would think allowing it to ramp up to 80F during the first day or so in the primary would produce a fruitiness that could be interpreted as cidery, but I have to ask, what was your hop schedule?

I've found that most "sweet" brews are mostly underhopped.

Anyone else like to contribute?

To clarify, it didn't leave the mid-60s until day 4 or 5. The beer was also around 60 IBUs (with sufficient late additions), so I doubt the hoppiness is the culprit.

WorryWort · 09-15-2009, 09:37 PM

Without tasting it I can only suspect fermentation temp. That sounds like it is out of range for that yeast; though you're right that only the first few days are crucial and carbonation temp won't affect this.. I really think the whole 'sugar makes things cidery' thing is blown out of whack, a real misguided fear.

Let it sit for a few more days, and share it with some other brewers if you can, they help to confirm the off flavours.

homebrewer_99 · 09-16-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyllstromk

To clarify, it didn't leave the mid-60s until day 4 or 5. The beer was also around 60 IBUs (with sufficient late additions), so I doubt the hoppiness is the culprit.

OK, I can see that the temp wasn't the culprit

and you mention late additions of hops, but nothing about the bittering hop schedule.

Maybe I'm just oversimplifying it and it is cidery.

**Yooper** · 09-16-2009, 01:30 AM

"Green apple" flavor sometimes is perceived as cidery. If it's that kind of cidery, that's simply young beer and it will get better.

I want to mention though that mid-60s for room temperature might be too high. What I mean is this- fermentation is exothermic, giving off heat. It's not uncommon that the temperature inside the fermenter is 10 degrees warmer. So, if your room temperature was 67 degrees, it could have easily been 77 in the fermenter. The room temperature is not what we talk about when we talk about "ferment at 68 degrees". We're talking about the actual temperature of the beer. If you have a stick on thermometer (like an aquarium thermometer), those are pretty accurate. If your room temperature went from mid 60s to 80, then your beer temperature could have been much higher than you planned.

As a result of high fermentation temperatures, you could get a cidery taste, or a very fruity taste along with some "hot" alcohols.

malkore · 09-16-2009, 09:57 PM

2 weeks in the bottle? Could just still be green beer.

JKoravos · 09-19-2009, 11:55 PM

Did you add any cider to it?

JK

**passedpawn** · 09-20-2009, 04:19 AM

Infection. It won't go away. Your searches will tell you differently, i.e., too much simple sugars, but you had a slip in sanitation and it is biting you.

I have two like this (IRA and a barleywine) that I am aging, but I don't think the nasty cider will go away. And, once it gets in your nose, you are disgusted. Sorry for the bad news. I am normally a RDWHAHB guy, but this is my reality, and likely yours.

BTW, if you get an urge to slice up a dirty beet (yep) and throw it into your cooling beer, think twice.

**-TH-** · 09-20-2009, 11:10 AM

Revvy would tell you not to diagnose an off flavor until at least 6 weeks in the bottle. I tend to agree.