Framboise "clone" recipe

Preface: I have not yet tried the finished product, I will let you guys know when I do. This is a beer in progress. It has been in the fermenter for 1 week as of this posting. Two more weeks and it will be in secondary to age for perhaps 2 months, or less, depending on progress of the raspberry flavor.


5gal batch post boil

6.5lbs 2-row/pale malt (I used 2-row)
4.0lbs Wheat (I used white wheat)
4oz CaraFoam (My LHBS has it as Cara-Pils)
8oz package of Malto-Dextrine (added to boil prior to bittering hops)

1oz Tettnang @ 60 mins
No aroma hops

Danstar Nottingham Dry yeast, pitched dry.

90 Min mash @ 150*F, Strike was at 168*F (I lose a lot of heat since its about 10*F outside right now.)
30 Min batch sparge @ 170*F

15qt Mash water = 1.39qt/lb grain
Sparge to gather 7gal pre-boil volume (I had to sparge with 5gal of water)

Boil for 90 minutes.

Pitch yeast at 66*

Primary Fermentation for 14-21 days.

Secondary Fermentation... This is where I feel the difference will be made in this beer. The recommendation is to rack the beer onto 6lbs of raspberry puree and let sit for 6-9 months. I have done this with a beer before and I really could only slightly detect the flavor of the puree in the finished beer. I think this is due to the sugars in the puree being "immediately" consumed by the yeast and the flavor is somehow tied into the sugars(?) therefore the flavor that should be imparted is hindered almost entirely.

My plan is to do this, boil down fresh raspberries into a more gelatin like concoction and rack onto that. I got this idea from making raspberry pie. The flavor of raspberry pie, to me, matches much more closely to the taste of Framboise than does raspberry puree. The puree is simply not strong enough to impart the heavy raspberry flavor to the beer. I have tried straight raspberries before, dumping 3 pints into 3 gallons and the flavor was slight at best. So I feel that boiling down the raspberries to a very jelly-like consistency will do the trick.

I will be adding about 1/2 cup of table sugar per pound of raspberries to the pot when I boil down the mixture. You will want to make sure you don't boil too hard or the raspberry jelly will begin to burn on the bottom of the pot, stir constantly. Use small amounts of water to get the boil going. A few cups usually.

Well I wish you luck on this. This beer style is one of my 'targets' that I keep trying after and like you I have had little residual raspberry flavoring.

If you are trying to avoid to much bitter from the hops, the Belgiums in making the lambic style use old hops. They have very low bitters, but still have whatever it is that makes hops a preservative.

I'll be watching this thread to hear how you do.

Post this in the lambic/wild brewing section, too (or just have it moved), and keep us updated. Lambics are a hell of a style to get into. I've got an experiment underway, just for fun, but I can imagine the satisfaction out of getting a real "labmicy" beer must be phenomenal. Good luck!

Without any bugs or sour mash or anything, this is going to be more like a raspberry wheat than a framboise lambic.

Don't worry about old hops--using lots of old hops is done for open-fermentation that captures wild yeast/bugs, but if you're using commercial dregs/cultures then you can just do what you're doing here (lightly hop to 7 IBU or so with fresh hops).

^^^ Oh, yeah, I didn't even catch on to the no mention of wild bugs. If it's a lambic you're going for, toss a few bottle dregs in there. Doesn't have to be all at once, either. If you separate them out by a few weeks, there's no problem.

Then again, maybe a raspberry wheat, without the acid/funk, is what you're going for. I don't really know what you mean, exactly, by "framboise." It's just the French word for "raspberry."

it is a brand of raspberry lambic

NNatic said:

it is a brand of raspberry lambic

Click to expand...

Lindemans is the brand, lambic is the style. Framboise-lambic is simply the flavor. Lindemans also has Cassis-Lambic (blackcurrant), Pêche-Lambic (peach), Kriek-Lambic (black cherry) and Pomme-Lambic (apple).

^^^ Right. Calling a framboise lambic simply a "framboise" or a "framboise style" beer would be like calling a vanilla porter a "vanilla" or a "vanilla style" beer. It's still a porter, as a style of beer, it's just vanilla flavored. Same with the framboise lambic. If you want a lambic, you've got to get some bugs in there, and wait a few years.

NNatic said:

it is a brand of raspberry lambic

Click to expand...

No, it isn't. Framboise just means "raspberry". There are dozens of commercial framboises, ranging from Lindemans/St Louis/Liefmans/Boons sweetened varieties to Boons sour, to Lost Abbey, Oud Beersel, Cantillon, Russian River, etc. Even Stella Artois makes a Framboise.

A traditional Belgian framboise is a soured lambic base beer with raspberries added in years 2-3 to give it the fruit bite. Without bugs, you're never going to make anything close to that--even the sweet Lindemans/St Louis and the like start off as bug-soured beers and are backsweetened later on.

Just brewing a wheat base with regular ale yeast and adding raspberries to it isn't going to get you a framboise in any commonly used sense of the word.

SumnerH said:

No, it isn't. Framboise just means "raspberry". There are dozens of commercial framboises, ranging from Lindemans/St Louis/Liefmans/Boons sweetened varieties to Boons sour, to Lost Abbey, Oud Beersel, Cantillon, Russian River, etc. Even Stella Artois makes a Framboise.

A traditional Belgian framboise is a soured lambic base beer with raspberries added in years 2-3 to give it the fruit bite. Without bugs, you're never going to make anything close to that--even the sweet Lindemans/St Louis and the like start off as bug-soured beers and are backsweetened later on.

Just brewing a wheat base with regular ale yeast and adding raspberries to it isn't going to get you a framboise in any commonly used sense of the word.

Click to expand...

/\ +100%
The beer will just be a raspberrie wheat no where near a clone

I agree with everybody else -- you are not going to make anything lambic-like. It is just going to be a raspberry wheat.

Not all framboise are lambic-based, some are brown ale-based (such as New Belgium's Framboise) but that is not a brown ale recipe.

I think this gets to the original point of the post:

DON'T DO IT!

the author has listed that he is going to make a gelatin from the raspberry puree. The idea of adding sugar to your concoction that will be added to your secondary is going to jack the alcohol content and jack the yeast production to super high levels. If you try it, make sure your blow-off tube is securely fastened.

I think you had it in the right direction with your first attempt: you were putting straight up fruit into the secondary. Just make sure your fruit is enough. If you slightly tasted 3 pints of raspberries, increase the amount. If you want to impart a stronger flavor, increase the fruit and try cutting the fruit in half. even scoring the outside of the fruit will allow the beer in the secondary to penetrate into the fruit and impart the flavor. If you increase the surface area of the fruit, then you will increase the flavor profile. If you puree the fruit, then it will all sit on the bottom and I'm not convinced that it will actually increase the flavor producing capacity at all. how much of the beer comes in contact with the puree that sits on the bottom? the gelatin will run into the same dilemma.

Case in point:

Just brewed the GF a peach wheat beer. The recommendation was to have 1 Lbs/gallon of peaches in the secondary. Peaches have a problem of having very little residual flavor after being bottled. The flavor even mellows and fades with aging. I wanted to make sure that the flavor was strong enough when the summer rolls around. I couldn't find fresh peaches, cause they had just gone out of season. That means I had to resort to canned peaches. Canned peaches come in two styles: heavy syrup or light. This was a strictly sugar based syrup. I didn't want to unnecessarily increase the alcohol production, although the merits of getting my girlfriend drunk quicker could be debated here at this point. First thing I did was wash the peaches from the syrup. On top of that, I made sure to use peaches that were sliced into smaller wedges. This allowed increase surface area and assisted with placing them into the carboy. I ended up using 8-10 Lbs (not sure of the true final weight) when others had used 5-7. This imparted a strong peach flavor (not too strong, but you didn't have to guess), which others had been having a difficulty with. Over time, the peach flavor has mellowed some. In addition, when using something like vanilla, the beans are cut to allow the beer to reach through to the inside of the beans. I can imagine that something like raspberries which seem to have little compartments, the beer would need assistance somehow in reaching the inside of the fruit.

Also, look into other ways to flavor the beer. mimics (apricots instead of peaches are similar) and also extracts are an easy way to add a flavor you are looking for without extra hassle. I have not looked at raspberries specifically, but there are guides out there to find out what the recommendation are for someone who adds straight fruit. If you think the flavor is weak, add more fruit. If you think the flavor is weak at bottling, add extract. I have never used raspberries specifically, so take all this as a suggestion.

If you do add sugar, make sure the blow-off tube is securely fastened. The excess syrup even after I washed the fruit caused a huge mess after the yeast restarted production in the secondary. Took me a while to clean.

Seems like some of the other posts have potentially missed the point of the original discussion. Maybe I did, but I hope this post is what you were looking for.

And if you're curious, I had the peaches in the secondary for only 30 days.

Hmm... a little clarification here.

I have been under the impression for quite a while that Lindeman's Framboise is not a true Lambic. From what I have gleaned from the internet here and there, it is backsweetened and artificially flavored with a synthesized raspberry "flavored" extract. It is also, possibly, a blend of 2 different beers which seems to be the current process for making the more mainstream Framboise/Frambozen/Geuze/Kreik style of beers. I had a converssation with Tiber_Brew via PM where we both debated the detectability of the "sour" note in Lindeman's Framboise. To me it is very nearly indetectable due to the overpowering sweetness imparted by the raspberry. He said it was there, but very subtle. I do not disagree, but I don't perceive it as much as say a Flanders Red (of course).

So, in an effort to get a Lindeman's Framboise-like beer from kettle to keg in a shorter time than a couple years. I am simply experimenting with a way to get the character of the sour/tart mixed with sweetness imparted to the beer quicker. If I fail at making a Lindeman's Framboise-clone, I will succeed at making a very Raspberry Wheat beer. I have had a few Raspberry Wheat beers and the raspberry flavor is minimal, to me. For me, a Frambozen bier with its ultra raspberry taste, though it can to some be overpowering, is spot on. I love raspberry anything. I make Raspberry pie during the holidays, I will choose raspberry jam/jelly over any other flavor, I really like Lindeman's Framboise (though I don't feel I have to turn in my man card because I like the taste ) So, I am attempting to get the tart-sour-sweetness imparted very quickly. And I do believe that I can accomplish this more or less with my formulation for a Raspberry pie. One key thing I did forget, however, is the addition of lemon juice. I have been researching Invert sugars and candi sugars and the differences between them in terms of what chemical reactions take place. I noted that the addition of a weak acid will convert sucrose to invert sugar without imparting a sour taste, if used in the correct amount. However, I posit that using too much will leave a distinct sourness, coupled with the concentrated characteristics of boiled down raspberries, this may be a way to "speed up the process" so to speak.

I will most likely be attempting this with a small sample batch of perhaps no more than a gallon first, then, if it works, siphon the rest of the batch to secondary on top of a full batch of raspberry pie filling.

One thing to note, the Raspberry pie filling I make, is not like raspberry jam, it is much more tart than sweet, which is why I believe it "may" impart the flavor I am looking for.

Comments and criticisms are welcome. Call me crazy, call me a visionary (lol ). I'm open to the discussion.

RedIrocZ well If this works, I want to know what you do to make it work. I also am looking to have that Raspberry flavor like the Lidemens.

I do think that it is a 'true lambic' but you are right that the sweetness overpowers any sour. I've used the WyestLab's lambic blend and gotten a good sour beer. Interestingly enough one of the bottle has a 'cork' flavor note, not unlike some of the Lidemens that I've had. This is odd because while Lidemens uses corks, this was a capped only beer.

But I digress. Lemons as you've noted are sour, but with enough sugar, that acid is overpowered. The trick is how to get sweetend without just giving the yeast more sugar to eat. So as I was saying if you get a stong raspberry flavor post how you did it

Perhaps you infected your infection?

I will definitely let everyone know. At this point its still an idea, not a tested method. You all may be right and this will not work, but I have not come acrossed anything that says anyone ever tried this before, so, it may as well be me.

Isn't the sour note imparted by the use of bacteria and the yeast cultures? I have read online that you are able to add the sour flavor by adding bacteria just before bottling.

My idea was to start with a wheat beer and then slowly transform the recipe into a lambic style. I was successful in that aspect, and will be making the recipe again with more of a sour tone to it in order to move towards a lambic.

I have to head out for work at this point, but I can dig up some of the research on the bacteria tomorrow if you need.

Be careful you don't add too much lemon. The lemon flavor will be stronger than anticipated. you'll end up with leinenkugel's sunset wheat instead... not that it would be a bad thing maybe more like the alagash white ale with a raspberry flavor added in

OK, back to the original question (thanks for the clarification, OP), I'm not certain that boiling the fruit down is going to enhance the flavor. That is, I'm skeptical it will. It works in a pie because of the reduction of water, primarily, though the heat may make a change as well (though I can't see it being a good change). Intensifying the flavor of the puree by dehydrating it, only to toss it into 5 gallons of beer, may well not make the beer taste any more of the fruit. Still, I may well be wrong, as this is conjecture, not experience, speaking.

Randy Mosher suggests .5-3lbs of raspberries per gallon of beer giving the best results in "Radical Brewing". It may be that you just need to get more in there, rather than doing something different, to get that extra flavor. Freezing the fruit and adding it whole seems to work for many people. If you're looking for a slightly sour brew without waiting for the bugs to do it, maybe try some acidulated malt or a (part) sour mash in the initial process. Even when fermented with regular yeast, one or both of these may give that "tang," not to mention residual sweetness, you're after.

Quite interesting GuldTuborg. I can see where that line of thought makes sense. Perhaps I can try that method next time and see what the likenesses or differences are.

Not pertaining directly to anyone here:

Another thought, pertaining directly to the reason I wanted to boil down the fruit. I want to impart the taste of the concentrated raspberry. By themselves, a single raspberry is a lot less sweet than say, a comparable amount of jelly.

The point is not to make a drink that tastes like Beer with Raspberry. This is supposed to be a drink that tastes nothing like beer, just raspberry.

I have added a few oz of lactic acid to a 5 gallOn batch and it gave it a nice slight tartness.

boost, did you do it to the mash, boil, primary, secondary? I have not ever used lactic acid before. How does one use this?

You could add lactic acid prior to bottling to make sure it is noticeable but not overboard.

When I taste the Lindeman's non-cuve rene stuff I pretty much get tart plus sweet plus a hint of lambic flavor, which is likely mostly attributed to being a very dried out wheat base. I don't taste lactic or acetic acid nor do I taste any brett characteristics. I believe Lindeman's pasteurizes and add sweetened fruit juice. The fruit used, like raspberries, is a very acidic fruit that I think combines with the present but untasted acids from the lambic base to balance the amount of sugar they use with the fruit flavor so that it is not overboard sweet and somewhat tart.

Although you could add lactic acid to get in the neighborhood of the Lindeman's stuff I think you will end up with a very tart raspberry wheat beer but it will lack the dry, thin mouthfeel because a saccharomyces-only fermented beer won't dry out or get as thin as a beer fermented out with pedio and brett because those critters will chew up the dextrins that saccharomyces won't. Personally I think that is an equally important part of why those heavily backsweetened lambics are palatable instead of being a sweetness overload.

I disagree with using lemon. Lemon is leave citric acid, which is much sharper and more biting than the lactic and acetic acids in lambic.

Why not just ferment raspberries, then? A sh*t ton of raspberries mixed in with a very neutral tasting white wine kit would yield a pretty raspberry flavored drink, with a lighter body. You could even carbonate it (though carbonation and residual sweetness might not go hand in hand without resorting to kegging or the like). You could still add acid blends to this kind of fermentation to get the acidity level you're after. Usually a winemaker's blend of malic, citric, and/or other acids gives the best flavor for these kinds of beverages.

This one has only been in Primary for maybe 8 days. There is still time to play with it. I could dump in bugs, I could do many things with it. I'm taking every suggestion and mulling it over. I may end up scrapping the idea of concentrating the raspberry altogether.

More thoughts, opinions, experiences?

Now that I think about it, I added 2oz into the mash and I used 2oz at bottling. Came out very well. I'd taste some samples after your done doing your thing with fruit and go from there.

Red,

What have you decided to do for this batch?

I watch with interest as I want to brew a Peche Lambic clone myself, without the wait time...

Not yet, ive had a very rough last few days. Ill think about it tomorrow

Do you think the technique that results in a true framboise is to start with a s.cerevisiae fermentation, then add brettanomyces?

By style, is it only a flanders red that would also use a lactobacillus strain or would a framboise typically also be infected at some point with lactobacillus?

Do most people who brew lambics start with s.cerevisiae or do most start straightaway with brett?

meadowstream said:

Do you think the technique that results in a true framboise is to start with a s.cerevisiae fermentation, then add brettanomyces?

By style, is it only a flanders red that would also use a lactobacillus strain or would a framboise typically also be infected at some point with lactobacillus?

Do most people who brew lambics start with s.cerevisiae or do most start straightaway with brett?

Click to expand...

Sweet lambics aren't typically brewed like traditional lambics. From talking with brewers in Belgium, they say that, unlike traditional lambics, sweet ones are made in only a few weeks. They are then pasteurized and sweetened with artificial sweeteners, fruit juice, etc and then other things are also added. So, it is hard to say exactly how the large, sweet lambic producers make their product.

Flanders Reds / Browns are not the only ones to use lacto. They don't actually "add" it to the beer. All the bugs are typically in the fermenting beer / barrels they pitch or pitch into.

Depending on the level of funk and sour you want, you can pitch sacc or pitch sacc and brett at the same time. If you want a lambic, though, you must also pitch a blend of pedio and lacto. It won't be nearly as acidic if you don't pitch those. From what I've read / heard / tasted, if you pitch sacc then the bugs, you wind up with a much tamer beer. Pitching them all at the same time yields a much more true to form lambic.

Ok, I have done a test batch with raspberries boiled down and combined in a 1 gallon jug.

Some pics.

Here I combined 4 cups of water to 12oz of fresh raspberries, with 1/3c of beet sugar (table sugar). I boiled the water for about 10 minutes before adding the sugar and raspberries. Once the sugar & raspberries were added I boiled for roughly 20 minutes. I wanted to boil the mixture down to the point where it was getting clumpy. Its very runny when you first combine everything and the berries break down.


You can see the consistency here. Its pretty sticky when you put some on your finger.


Here it is in the 1 gallon jug.
1 1/4" of boiled raspberries and sugar

There is about 6" of beer added on top of the raspberry concoction. Take note of the color, a very ruddy brown contrasting the deep red of the raspberries. This was taken on Thursday, 2/10/11



Here it is about an hour ago on 2/12/11 after 39 hours in the secondary. Notice the color is already very different. The Raspberries on top are completely depleted of color and are a tan color. The yeast has re-awoken and is really working on this sugary mixture. There are chunks of raspberry floating near the surface.

Interesting - let us know how things turn out. Did you add pectic enzyme?

How much beer are you going to add? I've heard as high as 2 lb per gallon and as low as 1 lb per gallon to get much flavor. If you add about half a gallon of beer to that, it should be right in that range.

And boiling the raspberries probably set your pectin. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it will ever really clear up (i.e. it will have haze) if that bothers you. I could care less as long as it tasted good.

Oh, stop brewing and post more damn pics in the Boneyard!

EDIT... you answered my question before I could post! Looking good!

GuldTuborg, no Pectic enzyme, no.

Barc, I know there is less than a gallon, and less than a pound of raspberries so its roughly 1lb/gal on this batch.

Boiling set the pectin 100% , needs more fruit

This beer started off as a straw colored blond before adding pounds & pounds of fruit- blueberry,rasberry,cherry,blackberry.
Then using dregs from a laundry list of beers> Cantilon Iris 2005, 3 Fonteinen Kriek, Fantome de noel, Orval and Guezes over the past 2+ yrs. Probably 20+ different beers in total along with a WY Lambic blend







I'll post a current pic later showing most of the fruit has been eatten, we're talking yrs and its still not done.

Wow I wish I had your patience!

Or well, I wish my sweety had your patience

I really want to do maybe 3 or 4 more test batches. The recipe cost me $17 to brew, plus fruit so far I'm at $25. If I make a fantastic beer thats over the top on raspberry goodness I'll probably have 5 gallons of it for around $85 or so. Not sure if it'll be like Framboise, probably not exactly, but hey, the experiment is fun.

Wanted to update this post. I stole about 3oz out of the fermenter yesterday night. I tasted it with the little woman. We both agreed it was very tart with raspberry, not overpowering but it was there, front and center. The body was very thin compared to what I was expecting, almost like a cider. I will need to do something else to get the mouthfeel up there. I did use 8oz bag of malto dextrine and 4oz cara-foam in this brew. But I feel it needs more mouthfeel to it. I did not take enough to do a gravity reading but my mouth tells me its 1.010 or lower.

I am wondering if the Lindeman's brewery uses any potassium sorbate to stop fermentation and then back sweetens with puree? Perhaps I'll have to try that. I would be worried about bubblegum flavor showing through though.

Carbonation should help the mouthfeel a little bit. The high carbonation levels of these lambics can add some body... you do want the gravity to be fairly low to give it that crisp/dry taste too.

In terms of wine, it will end up almost like a Riesling...

Lindemanns stops fermentation then pasteurizes. They use juice, sweetener, and extract to get the flavor / aroma.

Barc, i have read that too. HOW they stop fermentation is the big mystery to me. Any ideas?

As to the mouthfeel, I made an Irish Stout that I kegged 2 weeks ago. Coming out of the fermenter at 1.018 it was quite thick. This was very much more thin in body that I expected, considering that I used the same amount of cara pils and malto dextrine to try to up the body like I had done on the Irish Stout. They were worlds apart "straight out of the fermenter".