PBW and Oxyclean

What sort of off flavors would a small amount of residual Oxyclean or PBW impart into a beer, any ideas? how much residual would need to be left in/on equipment for these flavors to show up, if something is rinsed 2-4 times is that sufficient to get rid of enough so that there would be no off flavors in the beer?

If you rinsed thoroughly there should be no off flavors. I mean it's no different that washing dishes? Do you have off flavors in your food from washing your plates? People inherently know when something is rinsed enough....unless you've never washed a dish in your life.

PBW and Oxy are pretty much the same thing, except I think PBW has a surfactant in it. If it's rinsed well there should be no taste. There is a chance that a very long soak in very alkaline water might leave a residue, but that is easily removed by either wiping, or dunking in a mild acid such as Star San or diluted vinegar. I don't think this residue would have any flavor.

I don't believe(and I could be wrong) PBW has a surfactant.

It's composed of soda ash, sodium percarbonate, and sodium metasilicate.

I'd bet the metasilicate is in there to buffer against alkali attack on soft metals

What dilution rate of water to vinegar would be appropriate for a rinse? I have very hard water and always have a white powder residue after wash and rinse, dry. I know everything is clean but that white powder drives me crazy.

The MSDS of PBW shows SILICATES, PHOSPHATES, AND SURFACTANTS.

PBW MSDS

The MSDS for Oxyclean does not show any surfactants.

Oxyclean MSDS

The main chemical shown for PBW is sodium metasilicate comprising 30%

For Oxyclean, it uses 50-70% sodium percarbonate and 30-50% sodium carbonate. There is no sodium metasilicate listed.

70% oxyclean + 30% tsp/90 = huge savings, and the performance of PBW.

You should talk to Cape Brewing. He's an expert.

PTN

tasq said:

70% oxyclean + 30% tsp/90 = huge savings, and the performance of PBW.

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Yeah. I bought a small box of TSP to replace what Cascade Complete took out and it would make a nice addition to some Oxy to make some PBW alternative. I thought it worked well with the new cascade to prevent white film on our dishes. But the wife jsut went and bought some more expensive dishwashing detergent that seems to do ok with our alkaline water. So I have that small box of TSP!!

I *believe* the answer is (and our dear friend Cape may be able to confirm this), the answer to the question of "what kind of off flavors may arise from Oxiclian" is, in fact, "ass."

DO NOT use regular TSP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to use tsp/90 which is a Tri-sodium phosphate substitute.

Am I wrong or is oxyclean for laundry use? Not that it matters a lot,but I always see it in the laundry section in the grocery store.

tasq said:

DO NOT use regular TSP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to use tsp/90 which is a Tri-sodium phosphate substitute.

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Most of the TSP substitutes are metasilicate.

Why wouldn't you use regular TSP? It's not particularly dangerous or toxic. The environmental concern is that it is nutritious to algae, not toxic to anything. I personally care more about dramatic improvements in cleaning performance than unmeasurable environmental impacts.

tasq said:

DO NOT use regular TSP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to use tsp/90 which is a Tri-sodium phosphate substitute.

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I thought it was impossible to buy the old TSP (with real phosphates) any more. I read on another thread that Oxi-Clean can be combined with A&H Washing Soda and it will eliminate the white film. I haven't tried it yet, since it's just sodium carbonate, and Oxi-Clean already has that.....so I don't see what good it could do. We also have extremely hard well water (lots of dissolved iron and calcium), and if I don't use PBW, I get the white film on the bottles.

rico567 said:

I thought it was impossible to buy the old TSP (with real phosphates) any more. I read on another thread that Oxi-Clean can be combined with A&H Washing Soda and it will eliminate the white film. I haven't tried it yet, since it's just sodium carbonate, and Oxi-Clean already has that.....so I don't see what good it could do. We also have extremely hard well water (lots of dissolved iron and calcium), and if I don't use PBW, I get the white film on the bottles.

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They have regular TSP at my local ace.

mvolz said:

Am I wrong or is oxyclean for laundry use? Not that it matters a lot,but I always see it in the laundry section in the grocery store.

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And turkey fryers are meant to be used for frying turkeys, beverage coolers are meant to hold gatorade at football games, red oxygen bottles are meant to be used in welding, corona mills are meant to make flour for baking, toilet braids are meant to be used in plumbing, and aquarium pumps are meant for fish tanks..... We're a creative and adaptive bunch, ain't we?

Revvy said:

And turkey fryers are meant to be used for frying turkeys, beverage coolers are meant to hold gatorade at football games, red oxygen bottles are meant to be used in welding, corona mills are meant to make flour for baking, toilet braids are meant to be used in plumbing, and aquarium pumps are meant for fish tanks..... We're a creative and adaptive bunch, ain't we?

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And some of us are smart asses too!

mvolz said:

And some of us are smart asses too!

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You've been Revvy'd. Get used to it

rico567 said:

I thought it was impossible to buy the old TSP (with real phosphates) any more. I read on another thread that Oxi-Clean can be combined with A&H Washing Soda and it will eliminate the white film. I haven't tried it yet, since it's just sodium carbonate, and Oxi-Clean already has that.....so I don't see what good it could do. We also have extremely hard well water (lots of dissolved iron and calcium), and if I don't use PBW, I get the white film on the bottles.

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TSP is, and can be, sold for other things than for washing dishes and clothes. It was removed from the consumer products because some people claimed the phosphates were damaging the environment by promoting algae growth. I have read that consumer impact is like less than 3% of the problem, while farming promotes a huge amount to the problem.

It's not toxic at the levels you'd get from using and rinsing. The amount that I used for my dishwasher was less than half of the amount that was normally found in the old cascade formula as best I could determine.

You can get rid of the white film by rinsing your stuff with starsan after using oxy. If it didn't foam so much, and cost so much, I'd have tried it in the dishwasher. I did try vinegar and it worked some, but not as well as adding a very small amount of TSP with the detergent.

mvolz said:

And some of us are smart asses too!

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WTF???

I'm not being a smartass at all, it's the truth. We have adapted or re purposed so many things into our hobby. How is stating that fact being a smart ass? We use all those things, and more that I can't think of, including oxyclean.....I'm only stating the obvious. Do we not use all that stuff and more?

Hell, Paul kinda sums it up...

MyNameIsPaul said:

We make beer in buckets with toilet parts and coolers, this might not be the best place for you.

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I mean, I've been known to be a smart ass at times, but this wasn't one of them.

I'd say that mvolz asked a reasonable question. I was unsure of Oxyclean when I first started hearing about it concerning homebrewing. Until then I'd never used it or gave Oxyclean a minutes thought. So I started looking for it, turns out there are several different kinds. And AFIK none of them suggest Oxyclean for use in homebrew. It is understood that we re-purpose many things for our use. But if you don't know why be abused for asking?

Revvy said:

WTF???

I'm not being a smartass at all, it's the truth. We have adapted or re purposed so many things into our hobby. How is stating that fact being a smart ass? We use all those things, and more that I can't think of, including oxyclean.....I'm only stating the obvious. Do we not use all that stuff and more?

Hell, Paul kinda sums it up...



I mean, I've been known to be a smart ass at times, but this wasn't one of them.

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Sorry Revvy. I took it the wrong way. Its hard to tell the intent by reading. But call me dumb,are we talking about the same oxyclean you can use for laundry? If so,its a helluva lot cheaper than onestep or easyclean.

RonRock said:

I'd say that mvolz asked a reasonable question. I was unsure of Oxyclean when I first started hearing about it concerning homebrewing. Until then I'd never used it or gave Oxyclean a minutes thought. So I started looking for it, turns out there are several different kinds. And AFIK none of them suggest Oxyclean for use in homebrew. It is understood that we re-purpose many things for our use. But if you don't know why be abused for asking?

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Thank you RonRock:rockin: