Your favourite AK recipe?

[dmtaylor]

This is prolly still my favorite AK recipe, including the bespoke birthday recipe that Ron Pattinson found for me from 17 June 1925 (right day but just a tad few years before I was born!). Let me say this again, if you like Shut Up About, the least you could do is spring for Ron finding you a bespoke recipe from your birthday according to what you're looking for. My kidlet pinged Ron for a low alcohol beer for me, and he went back a couple of decades to find an AK (similiar to the link above) brewed on my birthday. Good stuff!

Ron is a super gem of a guy.

 

[ba-brewer]

I am curious how the AK were parti-gyled back when they were produced commercially. What would of been other the beers produced at the same time? Did they combine running or would each sparge be a separate beer?

The grain bill of the AKs has some similarities to a Classic American Pilsner so I was thinking of trying to get an AK and a CAP out of the same brew day. Maybe do a 3 running batch sparge mash and use mostly the first running and third runnings for the CAP and the middle runnings and some of the first runnings to do the AK. It also looks like I could just do a single larger batch and divide up and add water to the wort to get the AK preboil wort.

 

[Miraculix]

I am curious how the AK were parti-gyled back when they were produced commercially. What would of been other the beers produced at the same time? Did they combine running or would each sparge be a separate beer?

The grain bill of the AKs has some similarities to a Classic American Pilsner so I was thinking of trying to get an AK and a CAP out of the same brew day. Maybe do a 3 running batch sparge mash and use mostly the first running and third runnings for the CAP and the middle runnings and some of the first runnings to do the AK. It also looks like I could just do a single larger batch and divide up and add water to the wort to get the AK preboil wort.

I would do the last option, as this sounds like the easiest way to me. Also, you will not loose anything which might be extracted from the grain during the first run off, which the partygile might be lmissing.

 

[patto1ro]

I am curious how the AK were parti-gyled back when they were produced commercially. What would of been other the beers produced at the same time? Did they combine running or would each sparge be a separate beer?

The grain bill of the AKs has some similarities to a Classic American Pilsner so I was thinking of trying to get an AK and a CAP out of the same brew day. Maybe do a 3 running batch sparge mash and use mostly the first running and third runnings for the CAP and the middle runnings and some of the first runnings to do the AK. It also looks like I could just do a single larger batch and divide up and add water to the wort to get the AK preboil wort.

Yes, AK was often parti-gyled. At Fullers, with two stronger Bitters. The mash and sparge worts were boiled separately and then blended post boil. All the beers had a mix of the two worts. Pretty sure I've posted some details of the gyling on my blog. Somewhere amongst the 6,000 or so posts.

I'm planning a trip to the South in February. Starting in Atlanta and going anywhere people want to hear my weird English accent. Let me know if you want me to drop some recipes and drop by.

 

[ba-brewer]

@patto1ro, Thanks for the comments. I know I had looked at your blog in the past for parti-gyling information but I don't recall seeing this post. That post explains things pretty well, but I think it will take a few more rereads to get all the details presented.

Boiling and combining would be less than ideal for the AK and CAP but I think it could still work. Looking like two brew days after all.

 

[patto1ro]

@patto1ro, Thanks for the comments. I know I had looked at your blog in the past for parti-gyling information but I don't recall seeing this post. That post explains things pretty well, but I think it will take a few more rereads to get all the details presented.

Boiling and combining would be less than ideal for the AK and CAP but I think it could still work. Looking like two brew days after all.

Feel free to ask me any questions if anything isn't clear. Always happy to help.

 

[ba-brewer]

Feel free to ask me any questions if anything isn't clear. Always happy to help.

Thank you for your offer to answer questions and all of the information you provide in your blog.
I reread the one post and think I get most of it, the most confusing part was the use of lengths for volumes.

After doing more poking around your blog I found a post/recipe that has me thinking combining the CAP and AK was not that crazy after all. The hops used look like more like what I would expect in a lager than a bitter and not too far off from the all cluster hopping I was planning for the CAP.
Let's brew Wednesday - Fullers 1920 PA, AK, XK

 

[ba-brewer]

For some time now I have been brewing a best bitter according to @Northern_Brewer recommendation of 90% base malt and 10% some combination of crystal and/or sugar. Hopping pretty much follows most of the Wheeler recipes of a 60min bitter charge and a modest 10min charge. Would this qualify as a AK?

The earlier AK recipes seem to be base malt and maybe sugar without the use of maize, that is why I ask.

 

[ba-brewer]

I did end up doing a split batch of beer creating a CAP and a AK. I collected and divided wort before the boil so I could hop both halves differently. I did use a combination of two running from a single mash.

The AK portion was hop according to this recipe,
Let's Brew Wednesday - 1933 Kidd AK

The grain was different but was roughly
40% maris otter
40% US 6row
13% flaked corn
7% homemade invert(light amber color done in pressure cooker)
wlp013 london ale(needed to use up, first and most likely last time using)

It has been in the keg for a few days.

 

[Miraculix]

For some time now I have been brewing a best bitter according to @Northern_Brewer recommendation of 90% base malt and 10% some combination of crystal and/or sugar. Hopping pretty much follows most of the Wheeler recipes of a 60min bitter charge and a modest 10min charge. Would this qualify as a AK?

The earlier AK recipes seem to be base malt and maybe sugar without the use of maize, that is why I ask.

I've never seen crystal in an ak, and the hooping rate is usually lower then the bitter's.

I did end up doing a split batch of beer creating a CAP and a AK. I collected and divided wort before the boil so I could hop both halves differently. I did use a combination of two running from a single mash.

The AK portion was hop according to this recipe,
Let's Brew Wednesday - 1933 Kidd AK

The grain was different but was roughly
40% maris otter
40% US 6row
13% flaked corn
7% homemade invert(light amber color done in pressure cooker)
wlp013 london ale(needed to use up, first and most likely last time using)

It has been in the keg for a few days.

Sounds good to me!

 

[madscientist451]

Its interesting to track the evolution of the AK from 1870 to the 1920, the 1930 and the 1933 version.
The 1870 recipe uses all pale malt, a gravity about 1.050 and just slightly less hops than IPA. The recipe says 12-18 lbs/quarter which translates to about 7oz to 12 oz of hops for a 5 gallon batch.
Around 1880 the taxation for beer changed, the war caused shortages, more taxes and price controls and drinkers preferences changed.
By the 20's and 30's the use of 6 row, corn and sugar was common, the OG was reduced to 1.040 or lower and the hops substantially reduced.
The commercial breweries still used the term AK, but it really was a totally different beer.
Someday I'm going to try to get some Chevalier malt and see what the 1870 version was like.

 

[Miraculix]

Its interesting to track the evolution of the AK from 1870 to the 1920, the 1930 and the 1933 version.
The 1870 recipe uses all pale malt, a gravity about 1.050 and just slightly less hops than IPA. The recipe says 12-18 lbs/quarter which translates to about 7oz to 12 oz of hops for a 5 gallon batch.
Around 1880 the taxation for beer changed, the war caused shortages, more taxes and price controls and drinkers preferences changed.
By the 20's and 30's the use of 6 row, corn and sugar was common, the OG was reduced to 1.040 or lower and the hops substantially reduced.
The commercial breweries still used the term AK, but it really was a totally different beer.
Someday I'm going to try to get some Chevalier malt and see what the 1870 version was like.

I can highly recommend that. Chevallier really is something special. Best used on it's own first, to really see what it brings to the table. An AK would be a good starting point for this.

 

[Gusso]

I was curious about Chevalier so I looked for how much it costs here. Dang, my local guy said he could order it but it's $100/sack. A place outside of Philadelphia (I'll be in that area in January) has it for $90. I don't know if I want to pay up that much.

 

[Miraculix]

I was curious about Chevalier so I looked for how much it costs here. Dang, my local guy said he could order it but it's $100/sack. A place outside of Philadelphia (I'll be in that area in January) has it for $90. I don't know if I want to pay up that much.

What to you pay for a similar amount of base malt?

 

[Gusso]

If I'm lucky enough to get it from a brewery, then about $40-50. At my lhbs, about $65.

 

[Gusso]

I still may splurge and treat myself to a Christmas present.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Any shop that sells BSG product should be able to provide Chevalier at about $10 over the cost of floor malted MO.

 

[Gusso]

I never bought MO from my local store - too expensive. Iirc, it was in the upper $80's. I get pilsner, 2_row, and pale ale from him.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I never bought MO from my local store - too expensive. Iirc, it was in the upper $80's. I get pilsner, 2_row, and pale ale from him.

All domestic? Yeah, you can't really compare non-craft US malt with European imports. Price- or flavo(u)r-wise.

If you're used to domestic malt, a bag of Chevallier would be an excellent gift to yourself.

ETA: via my LHBS, all Crisp...
Best Pale Ale $62
MO $66
Floor malted MO $68
Chevallier $80

 

[Gusso]

The pils isn't domestic - Avengard, I believe. And the pale ale is Swaen, iirc, it's from the Netherlands. The 2-row is domestic. Anyway, yes, I will probably treat myself at some point.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

For some time now I have been brewing a best bitter according to @Northern_Brewer recommendation of 90% base malt and 10% some combination of crystal and/or sugar. Hopping pretty much follows most of the Wheeler recipes of a 60min bitter charge and a modest 10min charge. Would this qualify as a AK?

You have to remember that despite preceding bitter as a style, in modern terms AK can be regarded as a subset of bitter, and a really obscure one at that. Nobody in the UK has heard of AK apart from a handful of beer history geeks and the fraction of people in Hertfordshire who go to McMullen pubs and who think it's a brand name rather than a beer style (qv Fuller's ESB).

And given that in later years it merged into bitter, I would tend to define it from a 21st-century perspective in terms of the Victorian AK's - before crystal was really used in British beers and when Chevallier was the standard barley variety. So I'd say for it to be a "classic" AK you're looking at no crystal and Chevallier as the base malt - or at the very least one of the other heritage malts. I know that definition excludes some beers sold as AKs - but those later ones are effectively just bitters.

 

[eshea3]

I can highly recommend that. Chevallier really is something special. Best used on it's own first, to really see what it brings to the table. An AK would be a good starting point for this.

Good to know. Just got some and looking to brew with it this week

 

[ba-brewer]

While giving Chevallier another look I seen Crisp has another heritage malt called Hana. Seems to be a pilsner type malt but with the higher level of protein it might be a good sub for American 6row in AK recipes as the current American 6row I see seems to have a protein level more inline with American 2row.
Hana Malt | Crisp Heritage Malts | Norfolk Malted Barley For Pilsner Beers

 

[Northern_Brewer]

While giving Chevallier another look I seen Crisp has another heritage malt called Hana. Seems to be a pilsner type malt

Not "a" pilsner malt but "the" pilsner malt, it's the Czech equivalent of Chevallier in that it was the main barley variety used for malting back in the day, so it would have been the variety used by the likes of Urquell etc.

It makes gorgeous lager, so if I had some I'm not sure I would be using it for anything other than lager.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

@Beer History Bloke has restarted his blog (formerly Make Mine a Magees! at oldbeersandbrewing.blogspot.com, now at beerhistorybloke.blogspot.com) and has dug up an 1896 AK from James Hole of Newark :
https://beerhistorybloke.blogspot.com/2021/12/james-hole-co-ltd-k-bitter-beer-1896.html

 

[Protos]

Beer History Bloke has restarted his blog

Oh, finally!!
I've been a subscriber of his blog, brewed some nice vintage recipes from there, and was really upset when his blog suddenly stopped updating.
I even went to TheHomeBrewForum.co.uk to enquire what happened to the guy. They said he was busy with some new project and it was nice to know as I was starting to worry (lost too much familiar people to The Plague, so was assuming the worst).
Resubscribed to the new blog!

 

[Witherby]

I've just brewed 2 AKs recently. I had been looking for some beers to brew with Imperial Pub, so I chose two Fullers AK recipes.

The first was inspired by the Fullers 1910 AK in The Home Brewer's Guide to Vintage Beer:

78% Maris Otter (Crisp)
6% Corn grits (cereal mash)
6% Pilsner malt (cereal mash)
11% #2.5 invert (homemade--somewhere between 2 and 3)
Fuggles at 90 & 60 minutes for 35 IBUs
Worcester Goldings at 10 minutes for 6 IBUs

Mashed in at 148F which a little lower than I should have since the cereal mash took longer and didn't raise the temp as much as I thought it would.

OG 1.039
FG 1.010 (74% attenuation)
BU:GU somewhere around 1 (using up older Fuggles, so who knows)

Pitched a big starter of Imperial Pub at 60F in my 63F cellar and let it free rise to 68 F. Looked like it was stalling out at 1.013 and the kräusen was falling and the temp was dropping so I roused it about 48 hours in. Pub is a FAST yeast. After a week I racked to a keg with priming sugar and dry hopped with one ounce of Worcester Goldings whole hops from Stocks Farm.

Friday I tried to brew a more accurate interpretation of the 1887 Fullers AK.

80% Chevallier (Crisp)
20% #2.5 invert
Fuggles at 90 & 60 minutes
Worcester Goldings at 30 minutes

This was my first time brewing with Chevallier, so I did a long step mash starting in the 140s working my way up through mash out at 168.

Pitched at 61F right onto the yeast cake from the previous batch. OG was 1.044 and has dropped to 1.012. I am am going to let this batch stay in primary for at least week more. I'll dry hop with a half ounce of whole hop Goldings.

Beers are pretty similar but I imagine will taste pretty different. Can't wait to see what the corn brings to the first one and what the Chevallier brings to the second one.

 

[Miraculix]

I've just brewed 2 AKs recently. I had been looking for some beers to brew with Imperial Pub, so I chose two Fullers AK recipes.

The first was inspired by the Fullers 1910 AK in The Home Brewer's Guide to Vintage Beer:

78% Maris Otter (Crisp)
6% Corn grits (cereal mash)
6% Pilsner malt (cereal mash)
11% #2.5 invert (homemade--somewhere between 2 and 3)
Fuggles at 90 & 60 minutes for 35 IBUs
Worcester Goldings at 10 minutes for 6 IBUs

Mashed in at 148F which a little lower than I should have since the cereal mash took longer and didn't raise the temp as much as I thought it would.

OG 1.039
FG 1.010 (74% attenuation)
BU:GU somewhere around 1 (using up older Fuggles, so who knows)

Pitched a big starter of Imperial Pub at 60F in my 63F cellar and let it free rise to 68 F. Looked like it was stalling out at 1.013 and the kräusen was falling and the temp was dropping so I roused it about 48 hours in. Pub is a FAST yeast. After a week I racked to a keg with priming sugar and dry hopped with one ounce of Worcester Goldings whole hops from Stocks Farm.

Friday I tried to brew a more accurate interpretation of the 1887 Fullers AK.

80% Chevallier (Crisp)
20% #2.5 invert
Fuggles at 90 & 60 minutes
Worcester Goldings at 30 minutes

This was my first time brewing with Chevallier, so I did a long step mash starting in the 140s working my way up through mash out at 168.

Pitched at 61F right onto the yeast cake from the previous batch. OG was 1.044 and has dropped to 1.012. I am am going to let this batch stay in primary for at least week more. I'll dry hop with a half ounce of whole hop Goldings.

Beers are pretty similar but I imagine will taste pretty different. Can't wait to see what the corn brings to the first one and what the Chevallier brings to the second one.

I think you won't get much from the corn at 6%, I started tasting something which I really could point out at 25% of the grist, before that, it was too subtle. It could have easily been just my mind playing tricks because of expectations. Nonetheless, this will be a great beer! Way too much IBUs for my taste with that OG, but this is certainly highly subjective.

The second one will be grrrrreat! I love Chevallier and I love Pub, that is like the best combo ever. The 20% invert will bump the yeast character and the Chevallier will bring it's own complexity, man this will be good. Perfect beer to showcase yeast and malt.

 

[bwible]

I am finally getting around to this pack of A09 Pub! I have my starter going now and I plan to brew one of these 2 recipes this week. I adapted the Mild recipe from one Bramling Cross posted earlier in the thread and the Best Bitter recipe is another variation of one I've been constantly working on. Great stuff in this thread!

11-B Best Bitter

Size: 5.25 gal
Efficiency: 81.0%
Attenuation: 76.0%

Original Gravity: 1.046
Terminal Gravity: 1.011
Color: 13.69 SRM *
Alcohol: 4.54%
Bitterness: 32.6

Ingredients:
6 lb (75.1%) Maris Otter
.75 lb (9.4%) Crystal Malt 20°L
.25 lb (3.1%) Aromatic Malt (Amber 50)
.25 lb (3.1%) Cara-aroma®
1.75 oz (1.4%) Acidulated Malt **
10 oz (7.8%) Light Brown Sugar - boiled 20 m

.75 oz (33.3%) First Gold (9.2%) - 60 m
.25 oz (11.1%) Challenger (6.3%) - 50 m
1.25 oz (55.6%) East Kent Goldings (4.5%) - 10 m

1.0 ea Imperial Yeast A09 Pub

* I don't think this will be as dark as predicted. BeerTools scores Light Brown Sugar way too dark based on experience with previous recipes.

** I use Acid malt to adjust mash ph based on my water report.

--- OR ---

13-A Dark Mild

Size: 5.25 gal
Efficiency: 81.0%
Attenuation: 76.0%

Original Gravity: 1.040
Terminal Gravity: 1.010
Color: 16.36 SRM
Alcohol: 3.95%
Bitterness: 22.8

Ingredients:

5.5 lb (68.4%) Maris Otter
.75 lb (10.3%) Wheat Flaked
.75 lb (10.3%) Cara-aroma®
.25 lb (3.4%) Crystal Malt 120°L
1 oz (0.9%) Acidulated Malt *

.5 oz (28.6%) First Gold (9.2%) - 90 m
.5 oz (28.6%) East Kent Goldings (4.5%) - 15 m
.75 oz (42.9%) Fuggle (2.9%) - 5 m

Imperial Yeast A09 Pub

* I use the Acid malt to adjust mash ph based on my water report

 

[hout17]

I am finally getting around to this pack of A09 Pub! I have my starter going now and I plan to brew one of these 2 recipes this week. I adapted the Mild recipe from one Bramling Cross posted earlier in the thread and the Best Bitter recipe is another variation of one I've been constantly working on. Great stuff in this thread!

11-B Best Bitter

Size: 5.25 gal
Efficiency: 81.0%
Attenuation: 76.0%

Original Gravity: 1.046
Terminal Gravity: 1.011
Color: 13.69 SRM *
Alcohol: 4.54%
Bitterness: 32.6

Ingredients:
6 lb (75.1%) Maris Otter
.75 lb (9.4%) Crystal Malt 20°L
.25 lb (3.1%) Aromatic Malt (Amber 50)
.25 lb (3.1%) Cara-aroma®
1.75 oz (1.4%) Acidulated Malt **
10 oz (7.8%) Light Brown Sugar - boiled 20 m

.75 oz (33.3%) First Gold (9.2%) - 60 m
.25 oz (11.1%) Challenger (6.3%) - 50 m
1.25 oz (55.6%) East Kent Goldings (4.5%) - 10 m

1.0 ea Imperial Yeast A09 Pub

* I don't think this will be as dark as predicted. BeerTools scores Light Brown Sugar way too dark based on experience with previous recipes.

** I use Acid malt to adjust mash ph based on my water report.

--- OR ---

13-A Dark Mild

Size: 5.25 gal
Efficiency: 81.0%
Attenuation: 76.0%

Original Gravity: 1.040
Terminal Gravity: 1.010
Color: 16.36 SRM
Alcohol: 3.95%
Bitterness: 22.8

Ingredients:

5.5 lb (68.4%) Maris Otter
.75 lb (10.3%) Wheat Flaked
.75 lb (10.3%) Cara-aroma®
.25 lb (3.4%) Crystal Malt 120°L
1 oz (0.9%) Acidulated Malt *

.5 oz (28.6%) First Gold (9.2%) - 90 m
.5 oz (28.6%) East Kent Goldings (4.5%) - 15 m
.75 oz (42.9%) Fuggle (2.9%) - 5 m

Imperial Yeast A09 Pub

* I use the Acid malt to adjust mash ph based on my water report

Both of those recipes look tops!