Pretty much what the title says....I just got back my Ward Labs water (brewers) report, see below. I'm looking for some feedback on how this looks. I'll also be doing a deep dive into Bru n water to see where to go with this information as well.
Yes, another thread with water report results. What does it mean?
- Thread starter BongoYodeler
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It means "I gotta install an RO system or buy my brewing water at WallyWorld" 
I don't recall seeing a raw TDS that high since I've been hanging out on HBT...
I don't recall seeing a raw TDS that high since I've been hanging out on HBT...
thehaze
Well-Known Member
That is hard water, but not neccessarily bad for brewing. You need to approach styles you can brew with that water, or cut it with some distilled and try your luck, or the two options presented above.
You will need lots of acid to get your mash pH to conventionally accepted levels. I wouldn't brew with that water but if you have no choice you will need phosphoric acid. The amount of lactic acid required would probably put you over the flavour threshold.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Your sulfate is actually 183 ppm. Your 3:1 sulfate to chloride ratio would work well for west coast IPA's.
Generally when magnesium exceeds ballpark 30 ppm it may begin to lend a detectable nasty bitterness to beer. This may be your greatest drawback, but only brewing with it and tasting the final product will reveal this to be an actual issue or non-issue.
Your calcium level is perfect. Sodium is high, but I'm not as concerned with this as most appear to be, and it may actually be flavor positive.
80 mL of 10% phosphoric acid (or alternately, 5.9 mL of 85% phosphoric acid) added to each 10 gallons of your water should reduce the alkalinity nicely and bring the waters pH down to about 5.45.
For 10% phosphoric acid:
Density = 1.0532
80 mL x 1.0532 g./mL x 0.10 = 8.43 grams of pure 100% phosphoric acid added
For 85% phosphoric acid:
Density = 1.689
5.9 mL x 1.689 g./mL x 0.85 = 8.47 grams of pure 100% phosphoric acid added
Generally when magnesium exceeds ballpark 30 ppm it may begin to lend a detectable nasty bitterness to beer. This may be your greatest drawback, but only brewing with it and tasting the final product will reveal this to be an actual issue or non-issue.
Your calcium level is perfect. Sodium is high, but I'm not as concerned with this as most appear to be, and it may actually be flavor positive.
80 mL of 10% phosphoric acid (or alternately, 5.9 mL of 85% phosphoric acid) added to each 10 gallons of your water should reduce the alkalinity nicely and bring the waters pH down to about 5.45.
For 10% phosphoric acid:
Density = 1.0532
80 mL x 1.0532 g./mL x 0.10 = 8.43 grams of pure 100% phosphoric acid added
For 85% phosphoric acid:
Density = 1.689
5.9 mL x 1.689 g./mL x 0.85 = 8.47 grams of pure 100% phosphoric acid added
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Your water might make an okay stout or dark English ale. Otherwise, it's like liquid rock and you need to cut it down, maybe 50/50, with distilled or RO water to make it okay for other styles.
OP
OP
Well crap. No wonder I can walk on my water.
I really appreciate the feedback but these are confusing answers for this simple mind. LOL. I'll run this thread past my daughter who has a BS in Chemistry and she can hopefully further break it down for me.
Since I primarily brew outdoors, and was hoping to use the spigot on my back patio, I'll likely not invest in an RO system. I have no problem cutting with distilled water if that'll help, since all my brews to date have been using bottled spring water anyway. I can also use all distilled and build from there, but I was hoping to save a little bit of money and use my own water, hence the water test. All well, it is what it is.
I really appreciate the feedback but these are confusing answers for this simple mind. LOL. I'll run this thread past my daughter who has a BS in Chemistry and she can hopefully further break it down for me.
Since I primarily brew outdoors, and was hoping to use the spigot on my back patio, I'll likely not invest in an RO system. I have no problem cutting with distilled water if that'll help, since all my brews to date have been using bottled spring water anyway. I can also use all distilled and build from there, but I was hoping to save a little bit of money and use my own water, hence the water test. All well, it is what it is.
That's halfway to Burton water lol
Yeah, unless you only want to brew bitter/hoppy and dark (or lots of acid), I'd be diluting it with distilled or RO filtering it entirely, or just not use it at all.
I will say, i like elevated sodium when combined with elevated chloride. High sulfate, sodium, as well as high magnesium, doesn't sound a pleasant combo to me.
Yeah, unless you only want to brew bitter/hoppy and dark (or lots of acid), I'd be diluting it with distilled or RO filtering it entirely, or just not use it at all.
I will say, i like elevated sodium when combined with elevated chloride. High sulfate, sodium, as well as high magnesium, doesn't sound a pleasant combo to me.
That's not a terrible idea, but not as helpful if she isn't also a homebrewer or water quality guru. Not bragging, just stating facts, I happen to have several of these qualifications...
David M. Taylor
BS Chemical Engineering
Michigan Tech Class of 1997
OP
OP
I certainly understand where you’re coming from David, thanks. And you’re right of course since she’s not a home brewer her knowledge would be limited regarding this hobby.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Well crap. No wonder I can walk on my water.
I really appreciate the feedback but these are confusing answers for this simple mind. LOL. I'll run this thread past my daughter who has a BS in Chemistry and she can hopefully further break it down for me.
She needs to know that when Ward Labs reports Sulfate as "SO4-S", they are actually reporting only the ppm for S (sulfur). They cater to farmers, and all a farmer wants to know is the sulfur content of his/her water, not the sulfate. Consider SO4-S as Ward Labs shorthand for "sulfur as sourced from sulfate ions". If she breaks it down by molecular weights she will discover that sulfur's MW is 1/3 of sulfate's MW, and thus the need to multiply it by 3 to get ppm (mg/L) as sulfate ions. I wish Ward Labs would fix this for brewers. My guess is that 95% of home brewers will likely never realize that their sulfate ppm is 3 times more than they think it is based upon Ward Labs.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Well crap. No wonder I can walk on my water.
My well water TDS is almost twice as high as yours. Accordingly, I wasn't seeing your water as all that bad.
I'm extremely sensitive to magnesium and could probably even smell such high concentrations in water. I definitely wouldn't want to brew beer with that high a level of magnesium.
I'm extremely sensitive to magnesium and could probably even smell such high concentrations in water. I definitely wouldn't want to brew beer with that high a level of magnesium.
Most of us might not notice 32 ppm, but I share your concern. DEFINITELY do NOT add any Epsom to this water!!
I'm probably on the top end of the bell curve as far as my olfactory receptors are concerned so my experience might be not so representative.
I can detect levels of diacetyl as low as 0.06 mg/l just by smelling the sample and if you put salt on my salad (which I don't do because it then tastes really bitter to me) I'll be able to tell just by the smell.
It's both a blessing and a curse...
OP
OP
Thanks for everyone's replies. I was hoping for better news and to be able to use my own water for brewing, but that may not be the case. Question - if I were to cut my water with 50/50 with distilled does that mean I cut all the report numbers in half? Sorry if this is a silly question but would that make this better for brewing? Another question, I'm not real familiar with Bru n water but can I take the results of this report and input them in Bru n water? @Silver_Is_Money you wrote, "80 mL of 10% phosphoric acid (or alternately, 5.9 mL of 85% phosphoric acid) added to each 10 gallons of your water should reduce the alkalinity nicely and bring the waters pH down to about 5.45." Would I cut the 10% phosphoric acid in half (40 mL) if using my water and distilled?
Lastly, here is out most recent local water report I found online. Does it fall in line with the Ward Labs report? *I realize water chemistry can change somewhat throughout the year.
https://ncsd.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CCR-Report-2018-FINAL.pdf
Again....thanks.
Lastly, here is out most recent local water report I found online. Does it fall in line with the Ward Labs report? *I realize water chemistry can change somewhat throughout the year.
https://ncsd.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CCR-Report-2018-FINAL.pdf
Again....thanks.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
As to cutting everything in half, if you use 50% your water and 50% RO or distilled, the answer is yes.
As to Ward Labs resembling the local water authority's report, it seems to be in good agreement with the "averages" column. But that there even is an averages column opens up a new can of worms. Give them a call and ask if your water is single sourced or blended from two or more sources. If it is the latter, the blend on one day may not be the blend on another day.
As to Ward Labs resembling the local water authority's report, it seems to be in good agreement with the "averages" column. But that there even is an averages column opens up a new can of worms. Give them a call and ask if your water is single sourced or blended from two or more sources. If it is the latter, the blend on one day may not be the blend on another day.
OP
OP
Thanks. It's definitely blended, per the report - I think it's 51% Nipomo (my town), and 49% Santa Maria, (neighboring town). Whether that's a consistent blend throughout the year or not I have no idea. I'll call to get clarification.
catalanotte
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Lime soften. I have hard well water that can reach Alkalinities of over 300ppm. With the addition of CaOH (pickling lime), it precipitates out CaCO3 leaving water capable of brewing the lightest of beers (-50 to -100 RA) and allows for easy pH shifts with 5-10ml of acid. You will need to add additional calcium by way if CaCl or gypsum, watching you Cl-SO3 ratio for balance based on desired profile. If you are worried about Mg, add a bit extra lime to get pH to 11 and the Mg will precipitation out as well. Let it sit overnight and decant off for brewing. A tiny amount of phosphoric acid will lower water pH back down, and I rarely need to add more in the mash to get 5.4-5.6. I never buy water and don’t RO, but have great results for beers with an SRM of 4-40. Lots of good water calculators out that will help proportion these additions. I use Brewersfriend.
Which is all well and good, apart from sulfate concentration already above 200ppm. I definitely wouldn't want to add more salts into that.
And the blending of source water.
With all that in mind, i wouldn't even trust cutting it. I'd just RO filter it all or just buy RO and use that.
catalanotte
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Not sure I follow the 200 ppm. Check out this water treated with salts using the calculator. I realize playing with salts to level can be a bit of a leap of faith, but trusting the chemistry makes some good beer with tap water. I prefer to spend my money on malts and hops[emoji481]
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=KXWHFBT
OP's sulfate concentration is hovering around 200 ppm. A little less per the Ward Labs analysis (remember Ward Labs isn't actually listing ppm sulfate) and a little more on average per the report linked.
That's already higher than my preference even for a WC IPA. And not much room to go up from there either even if one likes a little more. And good luck trying to increase the chloride without getting a minerally harsh mess.
Plus, as he said, it's blended, so unless his water supplier is getting him accurate info at any given moment, any analysis is moot since he can't know what he's actually starting with.
I am normally 100% pro tap water when source is consistent and the starting water reasonable. In this case it is neither.
Or I suppose pick up one of the test kits and actually test your strike water prior to mashing in. That'd at least eliminate the blended water variable.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
This thread has finally inspired me to order a pre-paid test kit and get my well water tested by Ward Labs thereby. They have replaced the old standby W-5A Brewers Test with a new W-501 Brewer's Test (that costs more, no surprise there), so perhaps they have fixed the SO4-S issue. ???
To date I've only used a budget line GH and KH test kit to perform crude titrations on my well water, in conjunction with a pH meter and a TDS meter.
What I've come up with via these crude means is as follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TDS = 876 ppm by my meter and a bit over 900 ppm on the water softener rep's meter
Total Hardness = 758 ppm, from which I've inferred ~243 ppm Ca++ and ~37 ppm Mg++
Alkalinity = 437 ppm
Sodium = ???
Chloride = ???
Sulfate = ???
pH = 7.2 by my meter, and this was confirmed by the water softener facilities pH test.
To date I've used this water only once to make beer, at 25% well and 75% RO, plus acidification to pH 5.4. It turned out middle of the road, so it certainly caused no harm.
All I need to do now is wait for Ward Labs to send me the pre-paid container, fill it, and return it to them. As extras, I tossed in Manganese and Zinc.
To date I've only used a budget line GH and KH test kit to perform crude titrations on my well water, in conjunction with a pH meter and a TDS meter.
What I've come up with via these crude means is as follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TDS = 876 ppm by my meter and a bit over 900 ppm on the water softener rep's meter
Total Hardness = 758 ppm, from which I've inferred ~243 ppm Ca++ and ~37 ppm Mg++
Alkalinity = 437 ppm
Sodium = ???
Chloride = ???
Sulfate = ???
pH = 7.2 by my meter, and this was confirmed by the water softener facilities pH test.
To date I've used this water only once to make beer, at 25% well and 75% RO, plus acidification to pH 5.4. It turned out middle of the road, so it certainly caused no harm.
All I need to do now is wait for Ward Labs to send me the pre-paid container, fill it, and return it to them. As extras, I tossed in Manganese and Zinc.
I was thinking more along the lines of a LaMotte kit and test on the spot.
But your well is probably far more consistent than a municipal water supply.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I've done several spot checks on the TDS spanning 2 years time, and they all hover right close.
For the $10 (or less) that a TDS meter costs these days, perhaps the OP can gauge at least some level of consistency in his day to day water simply by taking spot TDS readings.
OP
OP
Yes, all things considered I've decided to nix the idea of using my own tap water due to all the red flags raised in the above replies. I do thank you all for your knowledge and advice. I think I'll look at using distilled water and build profiles from there based on whatever the style I'm brewing. Seems much less daunting than trying to "Frankenstein" my tap water into something approaching serviceable.
Cheers all...
Not a bad idea. Your water is pretty iffy for most styles. You can and probably should try it for a black or deep brown beer sometime to see if it comes out alright. It's not terrible for a very dark brew where the extra acidity of the dark roasted malts will help cancel out some of the excessive alkalinity and heavy minerals. Try it once or twice maybe.
OP
OP
Thanks. I may just do that as a test.
Not really, unless it never rains...
