Yes a hot side aeration question

[Joedub]

Ok so I know most people think this is a myth but I have to ask because I am going to brew my first non Brew In A Bag AG beer next weekend.

I don't have a pot to catch my first runnings and heat up my sparge water so I was thinking I will collect most of my runnings in a fermenting bucket then transfer to my 30qt brew kettle when all the sparge water is dumped out of it.

Should I be ok dumping hot wort from the bucket to the brew kettle? My gut says I will be fine but I would like some reassurance given this is the first "real" AG I wanted to limited possibilities for mistakes.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Your first statement is the truth-fact. Most people think it's a myth...... because it most definitely is. Even on a large scale, some breweries will let wort fall from decent heights.

My wort is lautered into the boil kettle from a height of about two feet from spigot to kettle bottom and it's never been an issue. Go ahead and use that bucket.

Just out of curiosity, why can't you collect your runnings in your 30qt brew kettle?

 

[IffyG]

Your first statement is the truth-fact. Most people think it's a myth...... because it most definitely is. Even on a large scale, some breweries will let wort fall from decent heights.

Not quite. It's absolutely real, but according to prominent brewing scientists (Bamforth comes to mind) as long as you get a healthy, vigorous fermentation the yeast work their magic and take care of any HSA products.

However, that being said you really have a hundred and one other things to worry about before HSA.

 

[Joedub]

Your first statement is the truth-fact. Most people think it's a myth...... because it most definitely is. Even on a large scale, some breweries will let wort fall from decent heights.

My wort is lautered into the boil kettle from a height of about two feet from spigot to kettle bottom and it's never been an issue. Go ahead and use that bucket.

Just out of curiosity, why can't you collect your runnings in your 30qt brew kettle?

I have a 30qt and a 5 gallon kettle. I want to do 2 batch sparges so half the water in one vessel half in the other. The 5 gallon would barely be big enough to hold all the sparge water I will need so to make it easier to pour and handle I am splitting it into to vessels. I will probably only have to collect the first running in the bucket.

 

[manoaction]

I was under the impression that HSA is only a threat post-boil. I thought that the boil removed HSA products. Am I wrong?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Not quite. It's absolutely real, but according to prominent brewing scientists (Bamforth comes to mind) as long as you get a healthy, vigorous fermentation the yeast work their magic and take care of any HSA products.

Source? Is it primary literature?

Sorry, I hate to nit-pick but unless there's a scientific paper that has been peer-reviewed and replicated, I don't buy it.

 

[Hammy71]

HSA won't effect your homebrew....spoken from experience.

 

[humblesea]

I've wondered this for awhile, I used to always dump my wort from the bucket to kettle and the beer would almost always come out very clear. I did this with probably 15-20 all grain batches. But I decided to experiment so my last two batches I have used a pump to get the wort to the kettle with no splashing and my first beer came out extremely clear and the second is still lagering right now. It's hard to tell if this was a factor in the clarity but I believe it is.

Also, I've helped brew at a local brewery a few times and their equipment is extremely old but their wort falls a good 4-5 ft from MLT to kettle, and I've always complained about their beer never being very clear, so I've always assumed it was because of this.

I say try different things, whatever works for you and be your own judge.

 

[IffyG]

Source? Is it primary literature?

Sorry, I hate to nit-pick but unless there's a scientific paper that has been peer-reviewed and replicated, I don't buy it.

I'm not gonna dig through Bamforth's CV, but I'm willing to bet you will find a paper or two that discusses the topic.

 

[doctorRobert]

Source? Is it primary literature?

Sorry, I hate to nit-pick but unless there's a scientific paper that has been peer-reviewed and replicated, I don't buy it.

You dont have to buy it, it offered up that information for free!

 

[BrewThruYou]

Source? Is it primary literature?

Sorry, I hate to nit-pick but unless there's a scientific paper that has been peer-reviewed and replicated, I don't buy it.

I don't buy that you don't buy it. Send me your scientific paper that's been peer-reviewed and replicated.

 

[doctorRobert]

I don't buy that you don't buy it. Send me your scientific paper that's been peer-reviewed and replicated.

Haha! Hate to be his brew partner....Don't pitch the yeast until you show me a scientific paper saying its at the proper pitching temp!!!!!


Hot Side Aeration is usually not an issue with Ales, its more present in Lagers from what I've read. Also, from what I've read regular air does not have enough oxygen to really cause an issue unless you're intentionally too vigorous. I wont link to my sources because they weren't published in a scientific journal so there is not point in sharing them.

Go to probrewer.com if you dont think HSA isn't an issue and read about all their problems, maybe its just not an issue at the homebrew level or we maybe we just have a tough time detecting it. But professional brewers think it is an issue, so its naive to believe its a myth only because somebody cant spoon feed you a scientific artcicle that's been peer reviewed.

Want to see if its really a myth? Pump some o2 into your hot wort and come back with the results. Instead of waiting for a scientific paper that won't come around (who has the time for that?), do an experiment.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Haha! Hate to be his brew partner....Don't pitch the yeast until you show me a scientific paper saying its at the proper pitching temp!!!!!

That's actually good advice for someone like 30 years ago. Everyone knows proper pitching temps now because it HAS been researched and reviewed. Don't take it for granted now that it's "common knowledge." For instance, you probably couldn't provide mathematical proof that 2+2=4 but everybody already knows it's true.

Hot Side Aeration is usually not an issue with Ales, its more present in Lagers from what I've read.

And what is so different about lager mashes that makes them more susceptible to hsa?

Also, from what I've read regular air does not have enough oxygen to really cause an issue unless you're intentionally too vigorous.

Yeah, of course it's an issue if it's too vigorous.... you start draining runnings for 10 feet up you're going to have wort splashing all over your kitchen/garage/brew-area. Seems like an issue to me

Go to probrewer.com if you dont think HSA isn't an issue and read about all their problems, maybe its just not an issue at the homebrew level or we maybe we just have a tough time detecting it.

It's all question/answer hear-say.

But professional brewers think it is an issue, so its naive to believe its a myth only because somebody cant spoon feed you a scientific artcicle that's been peer reviewed.

Professional brewers also think dry yeast is trash when I and many on here have made spectacular beers with dry packets.

Want to see if its really a myth? Pump some o2 into your hot wort and come back with the results. Instead of waiting for a scientific paper that won't come around (who has the time for that?), do an experiment.

I would do that experiment but in order to have definitive results I can't do it just once. I'll write up a research grant for all the materials I'll need and send that off to you. I accept cashiers checks or money orders.

Like I said before, don't just take information for granted.... of course there are already papers about it. It took me 5 minutes to find one. So you're lazy and stubbornly believe in myths. Cool.

Pay attention! My favorite part is where it says the most oxygen in the brewing process comes from dissolved O2 in the brewing liquor. I think you might have to switch to a brewing liquor that does have oxygen in it if you're going to avoid HSA. Might I recommend hydrofluoric acid?

However by far the largest uptake of oxygen comes from the brewing water (in mashing and sparging) which unless de-aerated will contribute around 30 ppm oxygen per kilo of malt mashed. Brewhouse oxidation produces a measurable increase in oxidised compounds (lipids and polyphenols) but it is not certain how much this may contribute to ageing in the packaged beer. Oxidation will use up the reducing potential in the mash and wort, producing beers with lower reducing potential, which would notionally be more prone to more rapid oxidation.

There are a number of contradictory articles in the literature dealing with wort and mash oxidation. In many systems the wort or mash was artificially aerated to produce an unnatural result. Research on a pilot scale looking at mash oxidation by comparing normal brewing (less than 40 ppm oxygen per kilo of malt mashed) with very reduced oxidation (1 ppm oxygen per kilo of malt
mashed) did not produce beers with improved flavour stability. However some process differences between the beers was noted:
• A better lauter tun run off was obtained with less oxidized mash with lower levels of oxidised protein as a result of less disulphide bridging between the polypeptides. Oxidised proteins polymerise by forming disulphide bridges (see Figure 3).
• Poorer beer foam performance was observed from the lower oxidised mash. The mash with less mash oxidation produced a beer with a higher reducing potential.
• Higher levels of oxidation increased the colour of the wort and beer produced. The beer produced from mash with higher levels of oxidation had lower beer polyphenol content (not at a significant level)

I highlighted important parts seeing as if your reading skills are up to par with your searching skills, you'll misinterpret this quote.

I wasn't saying that compounds don't become oxidated.... that happens all the time with REDOX reactions. The HSA myth is that it produces off-tasting beers. This article has shown that, while some things DO happen with an oxidated mash, these effects don't affect the flavor.

Here's the article citation: O'Rourke, Tim. The Role of Oxygen in Brewing. The Institute of Brewing & Distilling. March 2002, pp. 34-48.

 

[doctorRobert]

That's actually good advice for someone like 30 years ago. Everyone knows proper pitching temps now because it HAS been researched and reviewed. Don't take it for granted now that it's "common knowledge." For instance, you probably couldn't provide mathematical proof that 2+2=4 but everybody already knows it's true.


And what is so different about lager mashes that makes them more susceptible to hsa?


Yeah, of course it's an issue if it's too vigorous.... you start draining runnings for 10 feet up you're going to have wort splashing all over your kitchen/garage/brew-area. Seems like an issue to me


It's all question/answer hear-say.


Professional brewers also think dry yeast is trash when I and many on here have made spectacular beers with dry packets.



I would do that experiment but in order to have definitive results I can't do it just once. I'll write up a research grant for all the materials I'll need and send that off to you. I accept cashiers checks or money orders.

Like I said before, don't just take information for granted.... of course there are already papers about it. It took me 5 minutes to find one. So you're lazy and stubbornly believe in myths. Cool.

Pay attention! My favorite part is where it says the most oxygen in the brewing process comes from dissolved O2 in the brewing liquor. I think you might have to switch to a brewing liquor that does have oxygen in it if you're going to avoid HSA. Might I recommend hydrofluoric acid?



I highlighted important parts seeing as if your reading skills are up to par with your searching skills, you'll misinterpret this quote.

I wasn't saying that compounds don't become oxidated.... that happens all the time with REDOX reactions. The HSA myth is that it produces off-tasting beers. This article has shown that, while some things DO happen with an oxidated mash, these effects don't affect the flavor.

Here's the article citation: O'Rourke, Tim. The Role of Oxygen in Brewing. The Institute of Brewing & Distilling. March 2002, pp. 34-48.

1. I'm not convinced there is a "best" pitching temperature. Show me some research that proves one is better than another. Especially for lagers this is routeinly debated. Sounds like you took this for granted.

2. Typically lagers are more delicate than ales, so it may be easier to taste the HSA. That is not something that I claim or even witnessed, but something I read, in an article. Since your searching and reading skills are so above par, I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding it and reading the details for yourself.

3. Many probrewers use dry yeast. Safale isn't just making yeast for homebrewers, their best customers are probrewers.

Also - what does this have to do with HSA? So just because most probrwers prefer liquid yeast (and self propigate a house strain), everything else they do is discredited? This is a silly arguement that you brought up as a distraction and has nothing to do with HSA.

4. HSA is not limited to just an oxidized mash. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought HSA is mostly a concern post boil?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

1. I'm not convinced there is a "best" pitching temperature. Show me some research that proves one is better than another. Especially for lagers this is routeinly debated. Sounds like you took this for granted.

2. Typically lagers are more delicate than ales, so it may be easier to taste the HSA. That is not something that I claim or even witnessed, but something I read, in an article. Since your searching and reading skills are so above par, I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding it and reading the details for yourself.

3. Many probrewers use dry yeast. Safale isn't just making yeast for homebrewers, their best customers are probrewers.

Also - what does this have to do with HSA? So just because most probrwers prefer liquid yeast (and self propigate a house strain), everything else they do is discredited? This is a silly arguement that you brought up as a distraction and has nothing to do with HSA.

4. HSA is not limited to just an oxidized mash. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought HSA is mostly a concern post boil?

1) Wow, way to misread what I said. "Pitching tempS." And to find articles on that all you have to do is go to the manufactures website. It's their strain, they already did all the research. Easy defense. NEXT!

2) More delicate?! What the hell does that even mean? Tell that to my dopplebock.

3) You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with HSA. It's the fact that you said (verbatim) "professional brewers think it is an issue." Well, a lot of professional brewers scoff at dry yeast. Obviously professional brewers are not human, but instead omniscient superbeings that we all must obey 100% all the time.

4) The thread started with sparge/mash HSA questions. But in response to your question.... you're kidding right? I guess that's why TONS of people on here use medical O2 tanks to aerate their wort. And before you say "Duuuuur dur dur but uuuuh it's hot aeration", please explain to me what chemical properties differ between wort just after boiling and wort that has been cooled to pitching temperatures?

 

[doctorRobert]

1) Wow, way to misread what I said. "Pitching tempS." And to find articles on that all you have to do is go to the manufactures website. It's their strain, they already did all the research. Easy defense. NEXT!

2) More delicate?! What the hell does that even mean? Tell that to my dopplebock.

3) You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with HSA. It's the fact that you said (verbatim) "professional brewers think it is an issue." Well, a lot of professional brewers scoff at dry yeast. Obviously professional brewers are not human, but instead omniscient superbeings that we all must obey 100% all the time.

4) The thread started with sparge/mash HSA questions. But in response to your question.... you're kidding right? I guess that's why TONS of people on here use medical O2 tanks to aerate their wort. And before you say "Duuuuur dur dur but uuuuh it's hot aeration", please explain to me what chemical properties differ between wort just after boiling and wort that has been cooled to pitching temperatures?

Your arguments just make you look sillier.

1. That's not true at all. Many people reccomend pitching lager yeast warm and then cooling. I have yet to see a yeast manufacturer reccomend a pitching temp, only a fermentation range. Please show me. I'm terrible at searching and reading.

2. Go look up the word typically. Also, you know that lagers have less esters and are cleaner beers (at least mine do, and so are commercial examples, but I cannot speak for your beer).

4. So you oxygenate your wort hot? Aeration and oxidation are different things. When the wort is hot, the oxygen can bind to lipids, which make it so it can't be scrubbed out by the yeast. This is an issue. HSA does exist.
http://***********/stories/wizard/a...66-hot-side-aeration-a-storing-hops-mr-wizard

I bet you $1,000, that if you were to brew two batches, and one you aerate hot, and the other you aerate cold, that after one year in the bottle the hot beer would have more oxidation flavors than the cold aerated beer.

But you make your beer, do what you want with it. But don't go around telling people HSA is a myth just because you havent experienced it, when there is plenty of evidence to support it. Most people drink their beer too quickly, or dont have a refined enough pallate to detect the effects of HSA.

That is my opinion. You have yours. Good luck with your brewing.

 

[HSB]

I dump my hot wort all the time and my unrefined palate picks up no ramifications and my untrained eyes pick up no clarity issues.

OP, I think you'll be fine. I base this on nothing but personal experience, though I have had some peer reviews of my beer and they seem to like it.

 

[jmo88]

It feels tense in here. I'm going to tread lightly.

Doc, are you familiar with Dr. Charles Bamforth? He is the head of the Brewing Science program at UC Davis. While I am unaware of peer reviewed literature on the subject by Bamforth, he does discuss this on an episode of Brew Strong from 1-26-09. His knowledge has some serious weight and the discussion is more current than the 2002 BYO article you've referred to.