Yeast, yeast starters and stir plates for the newbie

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You're creating a great environment for clostridium botulinum (and botulism). The spores live through 212F, and thrive afterwards in the neutral-pH sugary O2-free environment.

But I get it, it's worked so far for you, go for it.

So the boil doesn’t kill everything?

Sorry, just trying to learn.
 
This is one subject that I’m confused about.

Are the jars boiled to be sanitized? AFAIK boiling wort with yeast will kill yeast, or are we boiling and canning wort in advance to make a starter? The sound of this makes sense...

Only foods that are acidic can be canned with boiling. Those which aren't need to be pressure canned at temps of 240 or more, which kills the spores that produce botulinum bacteria, which produce toxins that are, well, toxic.

Some have gotten away with just boiling, and they're lucky. We don't hear anymore from those for whom that didn't work.
 
So the safe practice of canning 1.03ish wort safely involves pressure canning. Doesn’t seem worthwhile.

Tomorrow is booked, but before the end of the week I’m going to experiment.
 
Well thanks guys. Just read up on botulism and i’ll be throwing out all my starter wort, yeast, and 10gal of beer in the fermented i pitched last night with the starter. ridiculously sad, but better off alive!

thanks. i do sincerely mean it.
 
https://www.cdc.gov/features/homecanning/index.html

You can decide if it’s worth the risk. Clostridium botulinum bateria are only killed at temperature around 240F. Boiling water at normal atmospheric pressures can not exceed 212F. Clostridium botulinum thrive in low acid, oxygen free environments and produce a neurotoxin that will KILL YOU. Do it right or don’t do it at all. Saving a little time making a yeast starter is not worth dying for.
 
This is the canned wort starter I'm talking about.
15590983862497705249437831789425.jpg
 
So the safe practice of canning 1.03ish wort safely involves pressure canning. Doesn’t seem worthwhile.

Tomorrow is booked, but before the end of the week I’m going to experiment.

I tried it...and all it did was create very dark starter wort w/ some sort of orange-colored stuff. Like this pic below, and needless to say, I haven't ever used it to make a starter. I'm back to 100 grams DME in a liter of water.

myjars.jpg
 
Northern brewer also sells a brand called fast pitch. I think it’s $12 for 4 cans. About the price of an energy drink.
 
I'm waiting for the question as to why beer doesn't allow the bacteria that produces botulinum toxin.

Answer: it's acidic, more than the bacteria can handle.

Discovered that through my furious Googling. Sadly i just pitched my yeast (made from a boil-canned starter) 24 hrs ago. Down the drain it all goes.
 
Goodbye delicious smelling Raging Irish Red. You did not deserve the driveway you’re now spread across. Better safe than sorry!
So sorry to hear it had to go that way. You could have spread it into grass, grass loves beer.
This is the canned wort starter I'm talking about.View attachment 628948
^ Ill go with that from now on...
Those cans are kinda pricey!

You can buy a pound of DME (sold in a 3 pound bag) for the price of one can. Or buy 2 pounds of DME at a bulk buy for roughly the same price.
Then make your own starter wort in a cooking pot with a well fitting lid, chill in sink, pour into flask, pitch yeast, and on the stir plate it goes. You don't have to stand there and wait for it to chill.
 
So sorry to hear it had to go that way. You could have spread it into grass, grass loves beer.


Those cans are kinda pricey!

You can buy a pound of DME (sold in a 3 pound bag) for the price of one can. Or buy 2 pounds of DME at a bulk buy for roughly the same price.
Then make your own starter wort in a cooking pot with a well fitting lid, chill in sink, pour into flask, pitch yeast, and on the stir plate it goes. You don't have to stand there and wait for it to chill.

I guess it really depends on how much you brew . If your brewing all the time then yeah 3 bucks will add up . 3 dollars to me ain't bad , but I dont brew every other week.
 
I guess it really depends on how much you brew . If your brewing all the time then yeah 3 bucks will add up . 3 dollars to me ain't bad , but I dont brew every other week.
So what kind of water do you guys use to dilute the can to 'propper' starter gravity?
 
FYI hops inhibit Clostridium spp.
That's good to know! Similar to how it inhibits Lactobacillus?
Like 10 IBUs worth? Boil a few drops of hopshot in a starter wort for 15 or 30 minutes?

But it won't denature the toxins if already in there.
 
So what kind of water do you guys use to dilute the can to 'propper' starter gravity?

Your supposed to use distilled water. I just dump the can in my flask then fill can with distilled and pour that into the flask . I give it a swirl towards the end to make sure all contents of can pour out.
 
I haven't used any of the canned starters, but since I decant (usually), I just make my starters with tap water. I don't even treat for chlorine. Never had any problems.
 
Your supposed to use distilled water. I just dump the can in my flask then fill can with distilled and pour that into the flask . I give it a swirl towards the end to make sure all contents of can pour out.
Hope you wipe the mouth/top of the water container with Starsan before pouring.
 
Hope you wipe the mouth/top of the water container with Starsan before pouring.

What water container? The kitchen faucet? No, I don't. I take precautions, but nowhere near what I read others do as far as sanitation. Whatever I am doing it has been working. One infected bottle out of 107, mostly 5 gallon batches of beer over a dozen wines and one cider.
 
What water container? The kitchen faucet? No, I don't. I take precautions, but nowhere near what I read others do as far as sanitation. Whatever I am doing it has been working. One infected bottle out of 107, mostly 5 gallon batches of beer over a dozen wines and one cider.
That was related to the water used for the Propper cans, they need to be diluted 1:1.

I use kitchen faucet water for starters, brewing, but that gets boiled anyway, never an issue.
Now if I needed water for cold top up or no-boil brews, etc. I'd be a little more concerned. I can remove the combination spray head easily, I often do, such as for filling brewing water buckets without sending water through the aerator. The hose flange that's left is easy to sanitize if I needed to.
 
Similar to how it inhibits Lactobacillus? [...] But it won't denature the toxins if already in there.
Right and right.

AFAIK, hops are bacteriostatic against all gram positive bacteria.
I found a study showing hops inhibit Clostridium specifically, but I didn't really delve into how much hops were needed.

If there's headspace in the jars, really the oxygen in there is all you need to inhibit Clostridium growth. It's a strict anaerobe.
To get food poisoning you'd need to have a Clostridium botulinum spore contamination in a vessel without oxygen (no headspace) and pH>4.5, stored unrefrigerated. (And not boiled under pressure)
 
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I’ve come to the point in brewing where I find myself comfortable the basics, cleaning, sanitizing, use of hops and grains, the boil, fermentation....

While I no doubt need to continue to practice all of that, I feel I need to start expanding my knowledge and practices. The next two subjects I want to learn in depth are water and yeast. I’m using RO water and I know it can be improved upon, but for now I want to learn about yeast.

I’ve read what I could find here and much the subject in the many books I have. To be honest, I love to read, but to really learn I have to be hands on.

In my venture learning about yeast I’d like to get ideas, thoughts and opinions about equipment, practices and products. I understand yeast choice and practice of use depends on recipe and your personal favored outcome.

I’ve only pitched dry yeast. US-05, S-04, champagne, and a few other wine yeast. That’s where I’m at. Knock on wood, 95% of what I’ve made has been at least tolerable, lol.

I have a yeast starter glass, I might be able to aerate three times a day, would a stir plate work better, or is that a waste of Money? Is a yeast starter really worth it over just pitching dry yeast?

Appreciate any input!
The advantage of liquid yeast is a much larger variety. Could be in my head but I prefer the liquid equivalents of us05. Cheers
 
Thanks for all the good advice! I would’ve been doing it wrong!
 
Even "refrigerated" there's a risk of botulism, isn't it?
True, but it would grow a little more slowly.

Leaving headspace and hopping would provide adequate protection from Clostridium though, regardless of refrigeration.

Personally I don't make the wort in advance. Contamination of any kind is too risky in my opinion.
 
Don't want to hijack the thread, but does anyone have insight into WHY you need a starter at all?
I know about the calculators, pitching rates, etc... I know where to find the baselines on what you are supposed to do, but not why you have to do it.
Theoretically, why can't I start with one single cell in a 5 gallon batch, and have it ferment out correctly if I wait long enough (just going to the extreme example to illustrate the question).

Why does the volume of wort matter to the yeast at all?
 
Don't want to hijack the thread, but does anyone have insight into WHY you need a starter at all?
I know about the calculators, pitching rates, etc... I know where to find the baselines on what you are supposed to do, but not why you have to do it.

Why does the volume of wort matter to the yeast at all?
It's actually a good question! It probably has been asked 100s of times and answered just as many:

Why yeast starters?

For liquid yeast:
  • Prove viability
  • Ramp up cell count for pitches
    • It reduces lag time and crowds out other microorganisms present in the wort/must so they can't get a foothold before the yeast does
    • Arguably may result in better beer
  • Boost cell health (vitality)
For dry yeast:
Dry yeast pitches do not require a starter or re-hydration prior to pitching. They are even discouraged by the manufacturer(s). Pitch by simply sprinkling yeast granules onto the wort surface. Allegedly wort aeration/oxygenation is not needed or recommended either. But theoretical and empirical evidence for these 'recommended methods' is hard to find.
 
... insight into WHY you need a starter at all?...

One good reason is that you can buy a strain of yeast one time, and brew on that single purchase for a very long time.

Overbuild a starter, pitch half of it, save the other half in the fridge for next time, when you again overbuild a starter and save half of it. Repeat...
 
Ok, so... in a perfectly sterile lab environment (for the sake of argument, zero other microbial competition, which of course we don't have in our garage/kitchen), no starter would ever be needed?

I get the points about proving viability and wanting the yeast to be plentiful and get a foothold before anything else (and building more for later use), but I also read stuff about beer tasting wrong with an under-pitch, etc. This is the part I don't get. If we had that perfectly sterile lab environment, could I pitch 1/10th of a pack of dry yeast into a 20 gallon batch, wait long enough, and have the right beer come out? I understand that it would take way longer since the yeast would have to start multiplying from a much smaller starting number in that case.
 
Theoretically, why can't I start with one single cell in a 5 gallon batch, and have it ferment out correctly if I wait long enough (just going to the extreme example to illustrate the question).
If that 5 gallon wort is sterile and kept sterile except for your single yeast cell and her daughters, yes, theoretically she could ferment that batch. But she won't, not like that.
 
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