Yeast Starters....Just starting and ordered some things

[fendersrule]

I ordered a StirStarter. I got the small one. Did not realize that they also made the larger one (didn't list on their website that I could see).

I ordered a Pyrex 2000ML flask. I want something that I can boil inside of using either my gas range, or my propane range (outside).

I started to doubt what I just bought, because sometimes I make 10 gallon beers (not often). But I realized that I can use the 2000ML for 10 gallon beers as long as the OG doesn't exceed 1.062-1.0163ish (going off of Mr. Malty's Calculator) AND as long as I use some FermCap. For example, 1.062-1.063 OG for beer (10 gallons) requires 1.77L of starter, which will require about 170 grams of DME.

I am also aware that you can "double up" or whatever on the starter, though I don't know how that calculation works. More below on an example.

I'm hoping that this unlocks new avenues for brewing. I have typically found that with dry yeast (US-05, S-04, Nottingham) and as long as a decently healthy pitch is made, I always turned out great beer, even without rehydrating.

When it came to liquid yeast, I am 0-2 so far. I had one beer turn out just flat-out bad, and I had one beer that turned out to be too much on the sugar side, almost like a stalled fermentation (even though it landed at 1.015-1.016 if I recall correctly). I'm attributing this simply to not using a starter with liquid yeast. Looking at Mr. Malty's calculator, it's quite clear that you are undergoing heavy risk by using liquid yeast (especially if it isn't fresh) without using a starter. I am hoping that using a yeast starter will allow me to also explore new liquid yeasts which will widen the variety of my beers.

Here's what I'm learning so far using Mr. Malty's Calculator

1) Date of liquid yeast is a huge variable. A liquid yeast that is 3 months old heavily affects its viability--way more than I ever thought. Example, using 5 gallons of 1.070 wort:

A packet dated of 9/09/2020 will require 2 packets with 1 L of starter (100g of DME)
A packet dated of 11/10/2020 will require 1 packet with 1.1L of starter (110g of DME)

This to me tells me that if the liquid yeast is over 1 month old, get two packets. OR, move the slider on Mr. Malty to the "user larger starter" slide and use a larger amount of starter. So instead of

A packet dated of 9/09/2020 will require 2 packets with 1L of starter (100g of DME)

I could do:

A packet dated of 9/09/2020 will require 1 packets with 2.5L of starter (250g of DME)--which my flask doesn't support.

2) It appears that it's not always going to be exactly 1L of a starter for 5G. This could variate due to the OG, size, and yeast viability date. Sometimes it's 1.1L (example above). Sometimes I suppose it could be 1.5L. Typically it won't be under 1L though for 5 gallons.

3) For 10G batches, it seems like I could use a 2L flask if a) the liquid yeast is dated recent, b) Fermcap is used, c) the OG of the beer is less than 1.062-1.063. Otherwise, I would need to make half of the starter, decant, boil the other half of DME in the appropriate amount of liquid using a stove pot, cool, then add to the 2L flask, effectively giving me double the amount. Do I have the general gist of this right? I can ask more detailed questions later on when I get there.

4) My Process will be as followed:

1. Place empty flask on gram scale and zero scale
2. Load in desired amount of DME (100g for a 1L starter--5 Gallons, 200g for 2L starter --10 Gallons, etc)
3. Fill flask with water to reach starter level. Add .1L to account for boil off
4. Boil 10 minutes. Before boil, add fermcap if flask is on the full side.
5. Cover with foil for last 2-3 minutes of boil to sanitize.
6. Dunk in ice bath to chill
7. Pitch yeast and put on stir plate. 12-24 hours.
8. Cold Crash Yeast (fridge) overnight before brew day
9. Remove, decant, swirl, and pitch!

 

[fendersrule]

5) Playing around with the calculator, here are some general rules that seem to be in place. 5G of 1.060 as an example.

If yeast is less than a month old, you only need 1L of starter.

If yeast is around a month old, you'll need 1.1L of starter, but can use one pack. Not much difference.

If yeast is about 1.5 months old, you're looking at about 1.5L of starter, but can use one pack.

If yeast is close to 2 months old, you're going to quickly coming up to the capacity of a 2L flask because in order to use 1 packet you'll need 1.75L . Alternatively in this case, you could buy two packets of yeast and be back to 1L of starter.

Do I have a decent understanding of how Mr. Malty's calculator works?

 

[Golddiggie]

Make things a LOT easier on yourself and buy the canned starter wort concentrate. Make 1L increment starters. I would also advise getting a 3L flask. I use this one most often (I also have 2L and 5L flasks). With the canned starter, there's ZERO need to do any boiling.

Look into doing multiple step starters. In a nutshell, you make the first step, cold crash, decant, and add the new starter wort on top of the yeast cake. Put back on the stirplate and wait for it to finish. Cold crash again before brew day (I give it at least a couple of days to make sure it all settles out). Decant most of the spent starter and make the rest into a nice slurry that you'll pitch into the wort.

There are different calculations out there for the starter sizes. I use the yeastcalc site (Yeast Calculator) for mine. It lets me easily calculate up to three starter steps to make sure I have enough canned starter wort on hand before things start. BeerSmith 3.x includes provisions for making up to two starter steps. I just use the full L increment to get where I'm either "close enough" or a bit higher on the final yeast cells at the end of the starter routine.

I've used yeast packs that were several months old (close to six in some cases) and just did the additional starter steps and had solid fermentations. I've also revived frozen yeast (about 8 years frozen) and had it take off like a r*ped ape once pitched into the recipe. That was a three starter set.

 

[kevin58]

I'm going to stick a pin in your balloon and suggest you look into Shaken Not Stirred (SNS) Starters. No stir plate and no cell counting. At least not for OG's of 1.060 and under.

 

[fendersrule]

The canned starter thing looks really nifty. Saves from having to mess with messy DME. Ouch though, at $7 a can shipped, with two cans needed for 1L of starter ($14), that seems a lot. I'll probably stick to DME. Edit: I'm seeing that 1 can of proper starter needs to be diluted, so actually 1 can will make 1L of yeast. That's certainly cheaper, but still higher than DME. Edit #2: Ordered a 4 pack from More Beer. $5 a can after shipping is pretty good for the convenience. May still need to do the DME method once in awhile though.

However, I never knew about the rule of only starting with 1L increments. What's wrong with 1.5L if that's what the calculator says? Or even doing 2L in a 2L flask, if you use fermcap? I suppose I could just use a glass 1 gallon carboy/growler though.

I can now see why you'd have to do whole increments with the can....that could be a little constraining.

Thanks for that calculator, I'll take a look for when I need to do a step.

 

[Jim R]

I wouldn't overthink it too much. For 5 gallon batches, I mix 750cc of distilled water with 3 oz of DME and 1/8 tsp of yeast starter in a 1 liter erlenmeyer flask and boil it for 15 min (watching closely and swirling to avoid boil overs). I then cool to pitching temperature in an ice bath, pitch the liquid yeast and stick an airlock on the flask. I now use an inexpensive stir plate but previously had very good results also just stirring it by hand every time I walked by. 24 hours later on brew day I pitch it into my fermenter. Works great every time.

 

[FswBG]

The canned starter thing looks really nifty. Saves from having to mess with messy DME. Ouch though, at $7 a can shipped, with two cans needed for 1L of starter ($14), that seems a lot. I'll probably stick to DME. Edit: I'm seeing that 1 can of proper starter needs to be diluted, so actually 1 can will make 1L of yeast. That's certainly cheaper, but still higher than DME. Edit #2: Ordered a 4 pack from More Beer. $5 a can after shipping is pretty good for the convenience. May still need to do the DME method once in awhile though.

However, I never knew about the rule of only starting with 1L increments. What's wrong with 1.5L if that's what the calculator says? Or even doing 2L in a 2L flask, if you use fermcap? I suppose I could just use a glass 1 gallon carboy/growler though.

I can now see why you'd have to do whole increments with the can....that could be a little constraining.

Thanks for that calculator, I'll take a look for when I need to do a step.

Also keep in mind, If you have a decent sized pressure cooker you can make canned wort with DME and have a stash to pull from like the proper starters instead of boiling every time you need to make one. It’s convenient and cheaper than 7$ a pop.

 

[fendersrule]

Also keep in mind, If you have a decent sized pressure cooker you can make canned wort with DME and have a stash to pull from like the proper starters instead of boiling every time you need to make one. It’s convenient and cheaper than 7$ a pop.

That's a good idea. Instead of "brew day" it could be "starter" day. Basically, make a gallon of wort and store them in large jars in the freezer. I like that idea.

Or, if you're making the right wort (maybe a pale ale or something), then you can make 1 gallon extra on brew day and just pull from it after mashing and freeze it as well...dilute it during starter day if needed.

Thing is, I don't plan on using starters every time. Actually, I think it's going to be an occasional thing for me. Dry yeast doesn't need starters from my experience. I'd even argue they don't even really need rehydrating...I went back and forth for awhile and didn't notice any difference.

I've used liquid yeasts 4 times so far out of 50 brews.

1) WLP380. Infected batch. I don't think this had anything to do with the yeast. This was pre my PBW cleaning methods.
2) WLP380. Perfect. It was sweet (in a good way) and the right amount of bubblegum for my Lemon Lime Hefe. It was so damn good.
3) Wyeast 1098. Wasn't right. I couldn't tell if it was infected, but it was sorely missing body. Over 24 hour lag time.
4) Wyeast 1098. Wasn't right. Overly sweet. Barely drinkable.

So I'm 2 for 4 on using liquid Yeast if you discount my infected batch that I believe was due to cleaning issues. 50% success sucks.

Staying with Dry Yeasts seems a bit limiting as well. I guess part of this is that I'd like more variety in my profiles besides US-05, S-04, and Nottingham. These three yeasts are more similar than they are different in profile IMO. S-04 for a British yeast is a bit too "clean" tasting, lacking the English "bread" finish and complexity. I mean it's there, but it's just a bit too clean according to my tasters. S-04 gives a dryer finish too which isn't necessarily the best for many stouts/porters.

US-05 will still be my "go-to" for most hoppy beers and sours. I'll substitute Nottingham when I want a clean yeast that isn't too dry-finishing.

 

[Golddiggie]

The cans are CONCENTRATE where you add 16oz of water to that to get 1L per can. Also, I don't know where you're looking but MoreBeer has it at about $3.50/can. Order up enough other stuff with it and you get FREE shipping. At least for most of the US. I've also found it at the LHBS I visit for the same price (maybe a little less).

IMO, the time saving and how much easier it is to use the canned starter wort, it's well worth the price. The fact that I don't need to measure DME, boil it, clean the pot (since I have an electric stove) after and make sure I don't get the walls sticky from the boiling starter wort, I'm sold on using the cans. I also don't need to worry about DME clumping, or age as being factors.

 

[fendersrule]

See my edit above. I found MoreBeer. Even their shipping is cheap if you don't order up enough. I was able to get 4 cans for a hair over $20.

I bought a gallon of L' Rossi (or whatever) Wine for $14.99. Pretty good deal. I can use this vessel for when I make large starters. I'll need to check to see if the stir plate will activate with it because the bottom is slightly concave (figure al 1 gallon glass vessels are probably going to be similar). I know that someone has already confirmed that the regular Stirstarter does indeed work with 4L flasks even though it may not look the best. One reviewer was easily able to get the vortex going without problem.

So I should be set for single batch and double batch now!

I think the only time I'd go the DME route is if the calculator calls for some odd ratios due to yeast date, OG, etc. Shouldn't happen too often at all is my guess. Even then, you should be able to theoretically dilute Propper Starter a little more, since a 1:1 ratio is 1.040, and starters should be 1.030 - 1.040. So if the calculator tells me that I need to have 1.3L, I may still be able to make due with just one can. I haven't done the math.

Edit, I just did the math. One can of Proper Starter should support up to 1.3L total volume which would land the OG at 1.031 if your calculator calls for a bit more volume.

Example: You can still use one can if your liquid yeast was produced 5 weeks ago which will calculate out to 1.25L needed for max yeast growth.

 

[Golddiggie]

Whatever you use for the starter on a stirplate, the vessel needs a flat bottom in order to work properly. It's one of the reasons why flasks are flat bottomed. All the wine bottles I've ever seen (granted I don't buy anything over a 750ml size) are not flat bottomed. Also, the opening on the flasks is larger and the flask has a better overall shape for this. Not to mention you can also get the foam stoppers to put into the flask opening for easy oxygen, without microbes/nasties, getting in/out during the process. Yes, some people use sanitized aluminum foil on the top of their flasks. But the stopper is easier and gives one less thing to worry about. Such as an insect crawling up into your starter wort and you not realizing that until it's far too late.

I'd rather buy something that will do the job right from the start than try to Mickey Mouse something to get it to mostly work where it opens you up to additional problems.

 

[fendersrule]

It's semi flat....slightly concave. It's absolutely nothing like a wine bottle. It's worth doing a dry-run on!

I've been reading that foam stoppers are pretty divisive if they are truly "better." Nothing wrong with sanitized foil. Lots of pros do that.

The important thing is that you want to maximize surface area. That is why 1 gallon "growlers" (which is what this wine bottle is) is actually pretty good for this...much better than loading up a 2L flask with close to 2L of fluid. Much less surface area.

 

[apache_brew]

FWIW.

I brew 12 gallon batches. I make starters for every batch and start that process 5 to 7 days ahead of brew day. I always just buy a fresh pack of yeast and build it up using Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculator - Brewer's Friend If I don't have any wort left over from a previous batch, I'll just use DME to build 1.040 wort for a 2L, 4L, .... multiple build up until brewday. What I normally do after draining into my brew kettle (BIAB) is dump a couple extra gallons of hot water into my mash tun and drain the last of the remaining wort and save it for future starters. I freeze it in plastic milk jugs (leave headspace for expansion) and then defrost and boil as normal whenever I need to make a starter for a future batch. These usually get me in the 1.030~1.040 range after its boiled.

Check ebay for used lab grade magenetic stir plates if you need another one Magnetic Stirrers & Hotplate Stirrers for sale | eBay, as well as amazon for 5L flasks https://www.amazon.com/Cole-Parmer-...ild=1&keywords=5l+flask&qid=1605215856&sr=8-5

 

[fendersrule]

Makes sense. The alternative to a "build up" is simply to use a larger container and double it all up front. The negative is cost since you are needing to use another yeast package. Correct?

My #1 goal isn't to save money. It's to assure that every single liquid yeast I pour from now on will be 100% ready to rip the wort apart.

Doubling it all up is still saving money. Imagine not making a starter and having 10 Gallons of 1.065 OG beer that require liquid yeast....simply throwing more yeast packages at it isn't necessarily the right thing to do either, but being able to have a healthy pitch using two packets is still worthwhile.

I will definitely learn to step step-starters for sure. It's not something I'm going to do at first though...I need to get in the practice of making them a few times the "easy" way first.

 

[apache_brew]

Makes sense. The alternative to a "build up" is simply to use a larger container and double it all up front. The negative is cost since you are needing to use another yeast package. Correct?

My #1 goal isn't to save money. It's to assure that every single liquid yeast I pour from now on will be 100% ready to rip the wort apart.

My interpretation from what I've read/heard is there's a sweet spot for yeast growth depending on how much you start with (1 packet, 2, etc..) and how much/sweet wort it's chowing down on. I've tinkered with the calculators and tend to start with 2L, then 4L, then 4.5~5 to get the amount I need for 12+ gallon lagers. What I think the intention is that in comparison, you won't get as much or as healthy of yeast growth from a 12L starter then from the smaller built up starters.

In terms of building them up, I'll cold crash each phase after 24 hours spinning and then decant the next day. Pour the yeast slurry & stir bar into a sanitized pirex measuring cup with pour spout and then cover it with sanitized aluminum foil. Boil another batch of wort in the empty flask, chill, and then pitch the slurry into it to complete the process.

 

[tracer bullet]

I like the starters just because it saves a little time and that keeps my wife happy when we have a 4 year old. But I get them from Northern Brewer's store which I only live a few miles from so that makes a difference.

DME is a great option. Depending on your scale the flask might be pretty heavy already and max it out. It would mine. Yours may be fine but verify it. Can always weigh the DME separately then throw it in.

Careful cooling a flask. I'd let it sit on the stove a while, then later cool it off to room temp. The sudden transition from boiling to ice water can break it.

The calculators are great but I think anything you do will be an improvement. I basically do 1L starter for normal beers, 2L for Imperials. I for one don't sweat needing a 1.3L starter to be perfect - 1L is so much more than just the yeast pouch it's good enough for me. Just an opinion of course.

Smaller stir bars are often better. Big ones sound good but can exceed the magnets in the device itself. Fill your flask with water and then run the stir bar at various RPM's. See if you throw it at all. If you find a high-ish one let it run for a while, like hours or overnight, to be sure. Mark that setting as your max. Generally you don't need a very high RPM, you are stirring not whipping. But if you have a highly flocculating yeast it can actually bog it down so you do need at least a semi decent whirlpool in it.

A 5L flask might have been best but yes it could be fine to try other options.

Use another magnet to capture your stir bar (from the outside of the flask) so it doesn't go into your wort w/ the starter. If it does, oh well, fish it out when you clean the fermenter and hope you don't need it again until then.

 

[fendersrule]

Great info, you guys rock.

Using a step-method, you can easily do 1L, decant, then another 1L to make 2L in a 2L flask, correct?

If true, then the gallon of wine I just bought it really there if I'm feeling lazy and don't want to do a step starter (if I'm in a hurry or whatever) AND I'm making a double batch, or a really really big ass 5G beer!

 

[apache_brew]

Great info, you guys rock.

Using a step-method, you can easily do 1L, decant, then another 1L to make 2L in a 2L flask, correct?

If true, then the gallon of wine I just bought it really there if I'm feeling lazy and don't want to do a step starter (if I'm in a hurry or whatever) AND I'm making a double batch, or a really really big ass 5G beer!

I guess so? Don't get hung up on the nomenclature of nominally valued starter sizes. Worry more about yeast counts and growth rates depended on package date, viability count, wort concentration, in addition to volume.

I also got into the habit of tossing in some Wyeast nutrient into all the wort I boil (starter & full batch) as well as fermcap especially for starters to prevent boil overs.

 

[tracer bullet]

Decanting and adding more wort gets more cells, yes, but it's less than the jump you get from the first liter.

 

[fendersrule]

Yep. I started putting a very tiny amount of Fermax into everything I do. Only a very very small amount is needed. I'll need to pick up some fermcap at my HBS.

I was planning to brew on Sunday, but my yeast starter cans won't be here. If I wanted to brew on Sunday, I'll need to use DME. Would this timeframe be too tight?

Friday 4PM: Make Starter
Saturday 10PM: Move starter to fridge
Sunday 4PM: Remove starter from fridge, decant, then pitch.

Making a Mac and Jacks clone, which should be about 1.058-1.060 at the most. Should be a pretty good beer for a first starter usage. One pack, 1L is all that's needed.

 

[tracer bullet]

Your schedule looks perfect.

 

[VikeMan]

However, I never knew about the rule of only starting with 1L increments. What's wrong with 1.5L if that's what the calculator says?

There's no such rule, and there's nothing wrong with making a 1.5L starter, if that's what will target the total cells you need.

There is such a thing as pitching "X" amount of cells into a too small or a too large starter wort (i.e. a too high or too low inoculation rate), but any good yeast calculator will steer you away from that.

 

[fendersrule]

Yea. Most 5G beers I do, Mr. Malty will say 1L = 1 Packet. I can see why that's the general rule because it's true for most cases. It's only when you try to outstretch those boundaries (super big OG, near expiration, more than 5G) then variables will come into play.

According to Wyeast, you can toss a Smack Pack into wort that is SG <1.060.

Most beers I make are pretty much at this level, if not a few points above.

From my research, most won't buy that. Seems like the general consensus is to still make a starter with liquid yeast.

There seems to be the thought that liquid yeast just doesn't perform like dry yeast...some are hardcore to start dry yeast, but I haven't found that needed or true.

 

[fendersrule]

Whatever you use for the starter on a stirplate, the vessel needs a flat bottom in order to work properly. It's one of the reasons why flasks are flat bottomed. All the wine bottles I've ever seen (granted I don't buy anything over a 750ml size) are not flat bottomed. Also, the opening on the flasks is larger and the flask has a better overall shape for this. Not to mention you can also get the foam stoppers to put into the flask opening for easy oxygen, without microbes/nasties, getting in/out during the process. Yes, some people use sanitized aluminum foil on the top of their flasks. But the stopper is easier and gives one less thing to worry about. Such as an insect crawling up into your starter wort and you not realizing that until it's far too late.

I'd rather buy something that will do the job right from the start than try to Mickey Mouse something to get it to mostly work where it opens you up to additional problems.

I don't even have the flask yet, but NO flask that I'm aware of is "truely" flat. It probably has to due with the manufacturying/strength qualities. Take a look at this Pyrex flask that I'm getting, which is better than any found at any HBS.

You can tell that it isn't "truely" flat. It has some concave to it.

The 1 gallon of wine growler that I have looks very very similar. I bet it would work splendid....

$14.99 well spent on that....just don't boil in it.

I'm sure I'll be paying (in other ways) from that pickup tomorrow morning....already on my 5th glass of cheap wine.

 

[Jesse Runowski]

Good luck on your first yeast starter! I've been doing them for years now and I love the results.

I've started making yeast starters that produce double the cell count needed for my batch. On brew day I pitch half of the yeast into my brew day wort and store the other half in a sanitized mason jar and place in the fridge for my next batch. If I am brewing the following week and I'm feeling lucky I'll pitch the yeast directly from the mason jar into my next batch. If the jar has been in the fridge for 2-4 weeks I'll make another starter with it before pitching. I love doing this because I get multiple batches from one pack, cuts down on my yeast orders.

You'll need a large flask for this, I use a 5000 ML flask and usually need 2L -2.5L liters of starter wort depending on my brew day batch OG.

I tend to use Imperial yeast the most which comes with 200B cell count. Helps count down on my starter sizes a bit.

Use another magnet to capture your stir bar (from the outside of the flask) so it doesn't go into your wort w/ the starter. If it does, oh well, fish it out when you clean the fermenter and hope you don't need it again until then.

This is an awesome idea, like I said I've been doing starters for years and I still play the game of how much yeast can I get out of the flask without pouring my stir bar into the wort. Definitely going to pick up a magnet for this!

 

[VikeMan]

Yea. Most 5G beers I do, Mr. Malty will say 1L = 1 Packet. I can see why that's the general rule because it's true for most cases. It's only when you try to outstretch those boundaries (super big OG, near expiration, more than 5G) then variables will come into play.

IIRC, Mr. Malty's logic bumps the naturally computed "single pack" starter size up to 1 liter if it would otherwise have been smaller, rather than enforce a true maximum inoculation rate in that case. I would say that "1L" is no sort of general rule. What you're seeing when Mr. Malty recommends something larger than 1L is the naturally computed result.

According to Wyeast, you can toss a Smack Pack into wort that is SG <1.060.

Wyeast, like White Labs, doesn't care much for recommending specific inoculation rates at all. Because they want their own yeast to seem "easy," there's an incentive to dumb it down. These guys are incredibly good at turning small amounts of yeast into large amounts of yeast, but I don't take brewing advice from them.

There seems to be the thought that liquid yeast just doesn't perform like dry yeast...some are hardcore to start dry yeast, but I haven't found that needed or true.

I don't know who thinks that, but it's definitely not true. It is true that propagating liquid yeast is more work (and usually, expense) than pitching a pack or two of relatively inexpensive dry yeast.

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO, if you're buying gallon jugs of wine, you might have deeper issues. None of the wine I buy comes larger than 750ml bottles. Then again, I don't drink cheap wine.

I just can't see the shape of wine bottles being as good as a flask. Then again, I'm not trying to save a few dollars by going that route.

"Buy once, cry once."

Too often I've seen (or experienced) where trying to go cheap initially ended up costing MORE in the longer term. Mostly because said cheap item didn't perform and was then replaced with the far better item. Meaning you wasted money on the cheap item. Even if you're chugging that gallon wine I can't see it being anything other than a stop-gap measure.

 

[tracer bullet]

I guess one advantage to using DME is adjusting the starter size according to the charts directly and easily. I tend to round off to 1L or 2L (actually 1 quart or 2) since I'm lazy and use the canned starter.

 

[jrgtr42]

I agree with JimR above - don't overthink things too much.
I do a 1-qt starter, with a cup of DME, roughly 1/4 tsp of nutrient, boiled 15 minutes and cooled, I've had no issues with any of my beers up to 1.085 SG. They always take off within a day or so (except once when the ambient temp was in the mid-50s F, it took a little longer, but a very sucessful batch - possibly my best ever.)
I personally subscribe that the only time you really need to boost volume when you get up to about 1.100 SG.

 

[Chuckbergman]

Adding to the discussion. I don't even boil my starter anymore. In a 2L flask I just collect about 1200mL of water and add 200g of DME. You have to stir a little more to get it all to dissolve but still faster than boiling. Then I add my harvested yeast which puts me at about 1600 to 2000mL. I don't have a stirplate so put sanitized aluminum foil on top and give the flask a swirl every few hours.

I usually do a starter 2-3 days before brewing. This has worked great for me.