Yeast starter using dry yeast??

[cwi]

Keep in mind I made the starter because I've been having trouble getting my LME+grain recipies to get below 1.020 FG. This will be my last LME brew, as I've constructed a mash tun today to make the AG jump.

It is not as big an issue as it appears based on this thread. I only went on the rant to get the facts straight. For most situations, it doesn't matter.

If you have been rehydrating with wort for the previous batches, it might be worth trying a proper rehydration with water on a batch (not necessarily this one) to see if it helps. You might also check into other best practices like aerating, proper pitching temps, having yeast and wort at similar temps, etc.

If you are going to be using liquid yeast regularly, building a stir plate helps with the starters.

 

[felixsth]

I have a simple question, if I look at what mr. malty tells me, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons of beer at 1.080, approx 550 billions cells, Would it hurt anything to make a starter with one pack to reach those 550 billions cells? I ask because I don't want to take 3 packs for this beer.

 

[paulster2626]

I have a simple question, if I look at what mr. malty tells me, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons of beer at 1.080, approx 550 billions cells, Would it hurt anything to make a starter with one pack to reach those 550 billions cells? I ask because I don't want to take 3 packs for this beer.

I make starters with liquid yeast, and I just rehydrate dry yeast. Not once have I ever used as much as Mr Malty wants me to. Not one time. My beer comes out just fine.

Mr. Malty is insane.

 

[mcaple1]

General rule of thumb for dry yeast:

For every 5 gallons of OG Wort 1.060 or lower use 1 packet 11.5 g of yeast. Anything higher than 1.060, use 2 packets per 5 gallons. I always sprinkle, and I've never had an issue.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I have a simple question, if I look at what mr. malty tells me, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons of beer at 1.080, approx 550 billions cells, Would it hurt anything to make a starter with one pack to reach those 550 billions cells? I ask because I don't want to take 3 packs for this beer.

it would probably just be easier (and not any more expensive) to pitch the 3 packs of dry. not to mention, all the makers of dry yeast recommend AGAINST making a starter with their product.

mrmalty is not insane, it's an app or a web based calculator. it's designed to ensure proper pitch rates and errs on the said of a healthy pitch. i know a lot of folks say they underpitch with no ill results, but i don't think many of those people have done a side by side with the same wort, half under pitched, half pitched properly and tested those results. it's one of those things that if your process is solid yet you still under pitch, chances are it'll be ok, but that leaves a risk of stressed yeast flavors in beer from time to time. why risk that when you can easily pitch a proper amount of yeast and lessen the risk of stressed yeast fouling your brew?

FWIW, i've found with certain strains, an 'overpitch' produces a better brew than pitching what mrmalty suggests. i've also found with some strains that a gross underpitch will still produce a great beer. that said, i go with suggested pitch rates for most beers, and have great results to show for it.

 

[flyingfinbar]

Lots of great info in this thread. Good read!

 

[unionrdr]

Not to re-open old wounds or anything,but what I do is all from my own observations & results. There are no beliefs involved. I just experimented with different ways to use the yeast & what results came from them.
I stopped doing starters with the dry yeast. I've since found that 2C of boiled/cooled water with 1tsp dextrose works fine to re-hydrate in about 20 mins,give or take. I've never re-hydrated for more than about 30 minutes either. This latest method looks to work the best from my observations/senses. In my Burton ale,I re-hydrated four 7g packets of cooper's ale yeast in this latest way for 20 minutes. Pitched at high krausen at about 7:30pm. I came down stairs,unable to sleep,at 3am. It was starting to bubble. Good thing I used a blow off. By dawn,it was going nuts.
I've used just plain boiled/cooled water before as well,& it took a bit longer to visibly start with the same yeast in yet another pale ale.
So I'm thinking at this point that the extra .5C of water,& half the amount of dextrose is the better of the different ways I've done it. Just from an observational standpoint. Do what works for you & fits your particular process. This one works best for me.

 

[paulster2626]

mrmalty is not insane, it's an app or a web based calculator. it's designed to ensure proper pitch rates and errs on the said of a healthy pitch. i know a lot of folks say they underpitch with no ill results, but i don't think many of those people have done a side by side with the same wort, half under pitched, half pitched properly and tested those results. it's one of those things that if your process is solid yet you still under pitch, chances are it'll be ok, but that leaves a risk of stressed yeast flavors in beer from time to time. why risk that when you can easily pitch a proper amount of yeast and lessen the risk of stressed yeast fouling your brew?

FWIW, i've found with certain strains, an 'overpitch' produces a better brew than pitching what mrmalty suggests. i've also found with some strains that a gross underpitch will still produce a great beer. that said, i go with suggested pitch rates for most beers, and have great results to show for it.

All of your points are valid, I guess I'm just not at that stage of being a master brewer yet. Too many other things to worry about. Mr Malty wants me to pitch a gallon+ of yeast sometimes. Screw that business.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

All of your points are valid, I guess I'm just not at that stage of being a master brewer yet. Too many other things to worry about. Mr Malty wants me to pitch a gallon+ of yeast sometimes. Screw that business.

it's not a matter of experience, it's just knowing that a proper pitch is better than an under pitch. you don't even need a starter if you don't want to make one, just use dry and pitch the recommended weight. i think it's well worth the 'effort' to make even a gal+ starter for a brew that calls for it. i have a 2L starter of 1098 for a beer this weekend, took me ten mins to boil, 15 to chill, 30 seconds to pitch. 36 hours later i have over an inch of yeast in the bottom. well worth the 25 mins, 30 seconds it took out of my wednesday evening.

 

[bjolu340]

Sorry for the bump, however I believe that there is a dimension not covered in the above discussion. As a brewer from the far northern parts of europe, it is not as easy as just buying another pack as the nearest brewshop is far away and ordering only a yeast pack would make the yeast unproportionally expensive - and sometimes you find yourself with a little time on your hands - not next week but perhaps next day.

So: question: - if I were aiming for doing a 20l (5 gal) lager and hence needed almost double the cell count that is in a 11.5 dry pack according to the mrmalty calculator and the fridge has one and only one pack of yeast - is there anyone here that still would go against doing a 1l starter the day before - as the alternative would be to just hydrate the yeast and pitch it as is (underpitching!)?

 

[cwi]

Sorry for the bump, however I believe that there is a dimension not covered in the above discussion. As a brewer from the far northern parts of europe, it is not as easy as just buying another pack as the nearest brewshop is far away and ordering only a yeast pack would make the yeast unproportionally expensive - and sometimes you find yourself with a little time on your hands - not next week but perhaps next day.

So: question: - if I were aiming for doing a 20l (5 gal) lager and hence needed almost double the cell count that is in a 11.5 dry pack according to the mrmalty calculator and the fridge has one and only one pack of yeast - is there anyone here that still would go against doing a 1l starter the day before - as the alternative would be to just hydrate the yeast and pitch it as is (underpitching!)?

You could do a starter since more dry yeast isn't an option, but you would probably need one about ~4 L to get to the proper pitch rate. I would guess the preferred method would be to rehydrate in ~100cc of water for ~30 minutes, then pitch into the 3-4 L starter. Chill it after it finishes (~24 hours), then pour off the spent liquid and pitch the slurry.

Doing a 1L starter may be counter productive since you won't get much growth, and the yeast will not be in the ideal state like they are when freshly rehydrated. Tough call, though, since this is an odd situation. Probably a tossup. More chance of contamination doing the starter, though.

You could also do a 10L batch, and just use the one packet, rehydrated.

 

[bjolu340]

Perfect answer, thanks. Now what to do with my 1l starter on the stir plate.. Oh well, it will probably be beer still.

 

[unionrdr]

I used to make small starters for dry yeast,& caught all kids of hell on here for doing so. Even the manufacturers recommend just re-hydrating more yeast to get the proper pitch rate. And packets of dry yeast have far more cells than liquid packages do. That's why the liquids need starters. It boosts the cell count up to wherwe it needs to be.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

It boosts the cell count up to where it needs to be.

And.... ensures viablility. For days like today, where you find a swollen SmackPack inside of your kit of the month club box.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,I here that.

 

[Unibrow]

General rule of thumb for dry yeast:

For every 5 gallons of OG Wort 1.060 or lower use 1 packet 11.5 g of yeast. Anything higher than 1.060, use 2 packets per 5 gallons. I always sprinkle, and I've never had an issue.

Same for me....dry yeast has always been reliable for me, and I've never done the rehydration

 

[unionrdr]

Basically,re-hydrating decreases lag time. Lil peace of mind where nasties are concerned. Plus starting quicker to me is kind of a head start. Works well,goes quick,& isn't hard or time consuming.

 

[thegame310]

Ugh...I'm reading this now after I just made a starter (800ml) for S-33 yeast for a brewers best Belgian Tripel...

I'm not planning on brewing until tomorrow...can I leave the starter go, or should I abort?

 

[logan3825]

Let the starter go. You probably needed 2 packets of yeast(just guessing your triple would be higher OG) anyway.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

I think this is insane advice and some weird truism that has developed on this site and others about dry yeast. If you need more yeast to hit a correct pitch rate and you only have one pack, there is no problem whatsoever making a starter with dry yeast. You can't just say, "oh you don't need to make a starter because 11 gram packs have enough." Not true, if you are making a high gravity beer. Download the specs on your yeast, if you need more, make a starter. Its that simple. Yes you could just throw two pack in but I have never, NEVER had a problem with making a starter from dry yeast.

 

[logan3825]

You can't just say, "oh you don't need to make a starter because 11 gram packs have enough."

Who said that? Obviously one pack is under pitching in some cases.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

Who said that? Obviously one pack is under pitching in some cases.

Probably not well put. My bone to pick is more with the idea that you shouldn't make a starter with dry yeast. If you need to make a starter because you are trying to save a few dollars here or there, there is no issue with that at all.

 

[cwi]

Probably not well put. My bone to pick is more with the idea that you shouldn't make a starter with dry yeast. If you need to make a starter because you are trying to save a few dollars here or there, there is no issue with that at all.

You might check your facts and educate yourself before you go denigrating other's correct advice, and preaching your own preferences.

The reason not to do a starter with dry yeast are (at least) two fold-

1. The yeast, after proper rehydration, are in a much better state than after the typical stir starter cycle. They play tricks on the yeast prior to drying to load them with nutrients. Dry yeast don't even need to have the wort aerated. (If you are harvesting, maybe a case could be made for aerating.)

2. It costs almost as much, or possibly more, for the DME/LME to make a starter to double the cell count, than the cost of simply buying another sachet of dry yeast for $3. If they keep ratcheting up the price of dry yeast like they have been, this may not hold up over time. (The OP did not have ready access to a LHBS, whereas most people do, or have a few extra packs of dry yeast in the freezer.)

At ~$6/100 billion pack, making a starter for liquid yeast makes economic sense. If you make your own starter wort from grain, it even makes sense for dry yeast. From a time/sanitation/health angle, it probably doesn't, but that is a subjective/personal choice.

The false truism that constantly gets repeated is that sprinkling dry yeast in/on wort is just as good as a proper rehydration- it is absolutely not. Dry yeast should always be properly rehydrated. Not doing so invariably results in high mortality (even higher than 50%, depending), and unhealthy yeast that do manage to survive.

There is a recent experiment on redydration methods and yeast health that is fairly thorough. I think it may have been Braukaiser. The knowledge level is always increasing, and some of the latest is that dry yeast packets may only have 100 billion per typical 11g sachet. Braukaiser has also done some recent work on yeast starter results with stir plates, and his numbers show much more growth than the typical online calcs (Mr. Malty, YeastCalc, BeerSmith, etc.)

 

[BigFloyd]

Uh oh. Now you've got me reading Braukaiser. Very interesting stuff.

 

[logan3825]

There is a recent experiment on redydration methods and yeast health that is fairly thorough. I think it may have been Braukaiser. The knowledge level is always increasing, and some of the latest is that dry yeast packets may only have 100 billion per typical 11g sachet. Braukaiser has also done some recent work on yeast starter results with stir plates, and his numbers show much more growth than the typical online calcs (Mr. Malty, YeastCalc, BeerSmith, etc.)

I am sure you can get more growth out of a stir plate than the online calculators indicate. They probably have to be fudged a bit for all the variance in making starters. You have to underestimate a bit for less than ideal conditions.

 

[Clonefan94]

Just for the record, I'm in the rehydrade, then pitch group for Dry yeast. I always have at least two packs in my fridge, so pitching another packet is never an issue either.

I was wondering though, since it seems some are set on building starters with dry yeast, if it would be OK to do so, following the regular protocol of dry yeast. If they properly rehydrated, then put it in the starter to start building the cell count, would that be OK? Granted, not worth they time and money with the price of another packet, but after reading through this thread, it just got my curiosity going.

If the problem with a dry yeast starter, is mortality and unhealthy yeast without rehydrating, if you rehydrated before adding to the starter, would that be OK? I know, I know, why even do it? I'm asking myself the same thing, but this whole yeast thing fascinates me and this question is now resonating in my head.

 

[BigFloyd]

I was wondering though, since it seems some are set on building starters with dry yeast, if it would be OK to do so, following the regular protocol of dry yeast. If they properly rehydrated, then put it in the starter to start building the cell count, would that be OK?

If you're going to do it, that's the way to do it. Otherwise, you take a big step backward (in cell count) by sprinkling dry into starter wort. The yeast then have to culture in the starter just to get back to the count at which you began.

 

[cwi]

I am sure you can get more growth out of a stir plate than the online calculators indicate. They probably have to be fudged a bit for all the variance in making starters. You have to underestimate a bit for less than ideal conditions.

According to Braukaiser, the numbers of the popular calc tools go well beyond 'fudging' or 'conservative estimates'. They are grossly in error. I don't think the other tools are underestimating to compensate for user methods/error, they are just built upon incorrect assumptions. If you are talking about stir vs. shaking, most calculators can be set up to return figures for stir-plate vs. shaken (and some, even degree of shaking).

You can read his report to decide for yourself. He has also contributed to an online calc tool based on his results- at brewersfriend, or something like that. You can see what the difference in counts are by comparing the outputs of various tools to his new one.

 

[cwi]

I was wondering though, since it seems some are set on building starters with dry yeast, if it would be OK to do so, following the regular protocol of dry yeast. If they properly rehydrated, then put it in the starter to start building the cell count, would that be OK? Granted, not worth they time and money with the price of another packet, but after reading through this thread, it just got my curiosity going.

This has been answered not too many posts back in the thread. You must have missed it. Like the subsequent answer confirming your method; rehydrating, then doing a starter is feasible (just not economically). It also results in inferior yeast health vs. using more dry.

If you need/use large quantities of a dry yeast, look into a bulk pack, then split it up into usable sizes. If handled with even moderate care, it is more sanitary and keeps much better than they let on.

 

[Lost_Arkitekt]

So, I'm bringing this back up to start a riot! :fro: I have one pack of yeast for a 10.5 gallon batch. I see no difference in rehydrating dry yeast, putting it into a big starter, letting it ferment, cold crashing it and pitching the slurry after decanting liquid.

Can someone say "yeast washing"? WTF is the difference between pitching on the yeast cake or washing yeast that was started with dry yeast and making a starter with correctly hydrated yeast.

If you can explain that to me the inherent difference, I may just buy you a sachet of yeast. Haha.