Yeast Starter For A Saison

[brewinginct]

I'm about to prepare my first yeast starter which will be used for a saison that I will be brewing this Saturday. I have a vial of the White Labs Saison Ale Liquid Yeast (I think it's WLP 565).

From what I understand all I need to do is boil half a quart of water mixed
with a generous half cup of DME and then add cold water to both bring down
the temperature to about 75 degrees Farenheit and to get a gravity reading
of 1.010-1.020. In the end I should end up about a quart of this mix, then
I'll dump it into a cleaned/sanitzed growler, pitch the vial of yeast, and let
it go for about two days. While it's sitting in the growler I should leave it
out of direct sunlight and make sure it's at about the same temperature that I'll be fermenting at (which will be 75-80 because its a Saison).

How does that sound? Is that a large enough yeast starter? Does my procedure sound about correct? What if anything should I do to make this yeast starter more successful?

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

What is the target OG of your Saison?

Use this: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[brewinginct]

Thanks for that link.

So my OG should be about 1.070 (maybe a little less). FG should be about 1.010-1.012. I'm doing a 5 gallon batch. The production date on the yeast is 7/24. I have no idea what to enter for the growth factor so I left it at the default.

When I put this into the site I was told that I need:
-241 billion yeast cells
-a 3.73 liter yeast starter

Does this sound excessive? Does that mean I'm adding the yeast to 3.73 liters of water + the yeast vial? I'm surprised because that's practically 4 times volume the guy at my LHBS recommended. How much DME would that require?

Thanks for all the help so far. I'm set on brewing this on Saturday so I assume that I need to start this starter tonight or else it won't be ready on time.

 

[LaurieGator]

Please don't add cold water to what you have boiled.

It is better to put the final amount of water in the pan and boil it. Then put the pan into ice water to cool it down to room temperature. Everything that touches the wort after it has boiled needs to be sanitized.

That amount sounds a little high. I have been doing starters with 1 liter of water and 100 grams of DME and throwing it on a stir plate. I have had fast starts to my wort which is usually around 1.060 - 1.070.

 

[brewinginct]

LaurieGator -

I'll take your suggestion and go with an ice bath over pouring in cold water. Did you mean to write 100 grams? That's about 3.5 pounds of DME, which is the same amount that I'll be using in the beer itself.

Also, I don't have a stir plate, if I shake the wort up really well then will I still have an effective yeast starter in approx. 36 hours?

 

[LaurieGator]

Yup... 100 grams is about 3.5 ounces

At least, I hope it is. I just bottled a bunch of beer today using 130 grams of corn sugar. If that is more than 3 lbs, I have a load of bottle bombs on my hands, LOL!!!

Yes, you can also go with regular shaking of the bottle. Maybe put a note on the fridge to remind yourself to do it every couple of hours. Look on the site here, I remember seeing plans for do it yourself stir plates with not much more than a computer fan and some other odds and ends. They are pretty simple and the stir plate is wonderful for growing yeast!

 

[brewinginct]

LaurieGator-

Well that's a good example of why I write instead of do engineering for a living, 3.5 ounces is much more reasonable haha.

I'm definitely planning on nerding out and building a stir plate soon, I just found a wicked strong magnet from an old hard drive. That's one great/bad thing about brewing, there's a million awesome gadgets that I want to build or buy, just not enough time/money.

Here's a big question that came out of your last post. I was specifically told by the guy at my LHBS to keep the starter at room temperature after I pitch the yeast. By keeping the starter in the refrigerator like you suggest then wouldn't I be inhibiting the growth on my starter? I've been looking at yeast starters as more or less a mini-beer, in the sense that once you pitch the yeast it has to be kept at normal fermentation temperature in order to do it's thing.

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

Here's a big question that came out of your last post. I was specifically told by the guy at my LHBS to keep the starter at room temperature after I pitch the yeast. By keeping the starter in the refrigerator like you suggest then wouldn't I be inhibiting the growth on my starter? I've been looking at yeast starters as more or less a mini-beer, in the sense that once you pitch the yeast it has to be kept at normal fermentation temperature in order to do it's thing.

People generally put the starter in the fridge after it has fermented out so that the yeast drop out of suspension and the starter beer can be decanted off the top. Then they actually pitch the slurry at the bottom once it is back at room temp.

 

[brewinginct]

BrookdaleBrew -

How can you tell for sure when to refrigerate the starter? I'm assuming that it's not practical to test the gravity so do you make that decision based off of airlock activity? And should I be shaking the starter intermittently the whole time it's fermenting at room temps?

 

[JNye]

no airlock on a starter, just foil over the top. shake the hell out of it whenever you walk past it...i don't ever test gravity, just give it two days then refridgerate. just me though.
i just made my first saison last week. Since it is a "yeast driven" flavor profile i didn't even make a starter. just pitched some wyeast 3711 straight into 1.078 wort. hope she's tasty.

 

[brewinginct]

JNve - Why wouldn't you put an airlock on the starter? I've heard the same thing but I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Also, I've heard that saison's (or maybe just the yeast I'm using) will slow down at a certain point and that these beers take a while to completely ferment out. Since the point of a starter is to increase the amount of yeast cells then wouldn't that be ideal for something like this? It sounds like either way it'll be a slower fermentation so why not help it get a good strong start?

Another general question, once I decant the starter could I pitch another starter size batch of wort on top of the slurry to further increase the amount of yeast cells? In theory couldn't I continue to repeat this process of fermenting, refrigerating and letting yeast fall out of suspension, decant and I'll just continue growing a bigger starter, which in turn will help product a cleaner beer with a quicker fermentation?

 

[JNye]

JNve - Why wouldn't you put an airlock on the starter? I've heard the same thing but I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Also, I've heard that saison's (or maybe just the yeast I'm using) will slow down at a certain point and that these beers take a while to completely ferment out. Since the point of a starter is to increase the amount of yeast cells then wouldn't that be ideal for something like this? It sounds like either way it'll be a slower fermentation so why not help it get a good strong start?

Another general question, once I decant the starter could I pitch another starter size batch of wort on top of the slurry to further increase the amount of yeast cells? In theory couldn't I continue to repeat this process of fermenting, refrigerating and letting yeast fall out of suspension, decant and I'll just continue growing a bigger starter, which in turn will help product a cleaner beer with a quicker fermentation?

the reason not to use an airlock is you want oxygen to increase cell counts. If you shake or use a stirbar with an airlock its counter productive. Once fermentation starts and fill the vessel's headspace with CO2, no amount of shaking or stirrin will get anyoxygen into solution. So you want free transfer of gases, hence a piece of foil over the top.

I think your second question my be dependent on which strain you are using. I used 3711. This strain is reportedly very vigourous for the first part of fermentation and quick. The last 10 or so points seem to take maybe 7 more days. So for me slow fermentation was no problem. Plus I used an activatior pack, which normally i would make a starter with but in this case I didn't because I should have been pretty close in how many cells needed(supposdily), and i didn't mind if I got some more phenols, thats what you want for this style.

I have never stepped up a starter but I think I might just add more starter wort to the original starter until I got it up. I wouldn't bother crashing and decanting. I'm not sure what the common practice is for stepping up though, I'm sure others will chime in.

 

[brewinginct]

I was on the fence about the foil vs airlock and was going to go with foil...but then as I was making the wort I saw a fly, which reminded me of the thread on here about some dude who found flies in his starter. So airlock won out.

So the starter is made and there's activity in the airlock. From this point on should I continue to shake the starter as often as I can remember to do so? At the very least this will keep the yeast in suspension. Would it be a good idea to take off the airlock when I shake it, to get some fresh air for the yeast?

Also, how can I step up this starter? Do you just put the starter in the fridge, let the yeast fall to the bottom, slowly pour off most of the spent wort and then add some fresh wort to it?

Last question, should I even bother stepping up the starter? Is it recommended to pitch such a strong starter into a saison? Will it help or hurt?

 

[brewinginct]

Bump for answers. Any help at all will be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[jmo88]

So the starter is made and there's activity in the airlock. From this point on should I continue to shake the starter as often as I can remember to do so? Yes. Keep the yeast in suspension and the shaking oxygenates the starter.At the very least this will keep the yeast in suspension. Would it be a good idea to take off the airlock when I shake it, to get some fresh air for the yeast?Yes. Otherwise you are not oxygenating the starter. Don't put the airlock back on, just use some sanitized foil.

Also, how can I step up this starter? Do you just put the starter in the fridge, let the yeast fall to the bottom, slowly pour off most of the spent wort and then add some fresh wort to it?Correct.

Last question, should I even bother stepping up the starter?Maybe. Is it recommended to pitch such a strong starter into a saison?What is your OG and what size is the starter vessel? Will it help or hurt? It depends on your OG.

Have you used Mr. Malty?

 

[jmo88]

OH. I see now. OG was 1.070. Mr. Malty says 3.44 litres. So I'd step it up.

 

[brewinginct]

jmo88-

Thanks for replying. I know, everyone is saying go with the tin foil but I have these damn flies around the house, and I read that thread about someone finding flies in their starter.

Should I still just do some tinfoil anyways and not worry about flies getting in the starter? Could I just keep popping off the airlock, shaking it, putting the airlock on and repeating the process if I'm that worried about flies?

How long do I have to keep the starter in the fridge before it's ready to decant; are there visual cues or a general amount of time? How much wort should I leave in the starter when decanting?

Maybe this is obvious, but do I need to let the starter get to room temperature after I take it out of the fridge before I add more wort to it the same way I had to let the yeast get to room temperature before pitching it into the starter.

It's a lot of questions but better to ask than to screw up the starter

 

[CortexBomb]

My two cents:

You don't have to cold crash a starter to use it. Some people do, others don't. You can just as easily ferment a starter out for a day and then dump the entire thing directly into the bucket. There are beer geek debates over the relative merits of this versus cold crashing and losing the liquid from the starter, but if you want to make it simple, then just do it the first way, it works, trust me

Similarly on the foil versus the airlock. If you shake the hell out of the starter to aerate it before pitching, you will not have any problems. You can use a stir plate, and you can put foil on top of it, but trust me, if you just shake the thing, or swirl it (depending on the vessel this can be easier or harder, I have an Erlenmeyer flask which is made for swirling) then your yeast should not have any problems. You do not need to reopen it. If you want to, feel free, but it's not necessary.

If you do opt to cold crash the starter, then you absolutely have to let it warm back up, just like you would the original vial. I think the recommendation is 5 hours?

On an aside, Mr. Malty is a good guide, but it recommends starters that are way beyond what you need. Unless you're brewing very, very high gravity beers, than a 1-1.5 litre starter is going to be fine, absolutely fine. I think their math is based on ideal, commercial production situations, but a 3 litre+ starter is absolutely not required for medium high gravity stuff in that 1.070-1.080 range that you're talking about.

 

[jmo88]

jmo88-

Thanks for replying. I know, everyone is saying go with the tin foil but I have these damn flies around the house, and I read that thread about someone finding flies in their starter.

Should I still just do some tinfoil anyways and not worry about flies getting in the starter? I wouldn't worry about the flies. Fruit flies would be the only thing that would have a chance. I'd try to find an area of the house that doesn't have any flies around. Could I just keep popping off the airlock, shaking it, putting the airlock on and repeating the process if I'm that worried about flies? I suppose, but it seems you would be limiting the oxygen. If you're really freaked out about it, popping it off just for the shaking seems like a decent compromise.

How long do I have to keep the starter in the fridge before it's ready to decant; are there visual cues or a general amount of time? Let it go for at least 24 hours, maybe longer. The wort should be fairly clear and you'll see a distinct line of yeast at the bottom. How much wort should I leave in the starter when decanting? I am not sure I understand. You want to take as much wort out as possible without taking the yeast with it. It doesn't matter if some gets pitched into the fermenter.

Maybe this is obvious, but do I need to let the starter get to room temperature after I take it out of the fridge before I add more wort to it the same way I had to let the yeast get to room temperature before pitching it into the starter. I don't let it rise. Some believe they get less lag time than when they let it rise to room temp. I've never experienced problems with a cold pitch – quite the opposite actually.

It's a lot of questions but better to ask than to screw up the starter

Hope that helps

 

[JNye]

My two cents:
If you do opt to cold crash the starter, then you absolutely have to let it warm back up, just like you would the original vial. I think the recommendation is 5 hours?

False. Cold pitching is completely acceptable and considered by many to yield better results.

I agree with most of the rest, just use tinfoil, flies won't get past it but oxygen will. I would NOT make no 3 liter starter, thats a joke IMO, its not a lager. 1 liter seems like more then enough in my little mind.

I would personally cold crash a 1 liter or higher starter, but would agree 1 liter or less is prolly negligible in a 5 gallon batch and you could just pitch it a high krausen.

Good luck...the good news, it all works. Most of these minor details will produce very very minor differences if any at all.

 

[brewinginct]

Thanks for your replies CortexBomb, jmo88, JNye. They definitely helped out, but they raised a couple of questions about cold crashing and stepping up the starter.

I made this starter around 11pm Monday. Now it's almost two days later and I just took a look at it and although there is airlock activity (bubbles every 15 seconds or so) but not much krausen. Is it safe to add new wort to the starter already?

I'm planning on brewing on Sunday and want to step up the starter before then. Would this plan work?

-Prepare more wort at 1 quart water to 1 cup DME.
-Add the new wort to the used wort/yeast that's already in the starter tonight or tomorrow (by the early afternoon)
-Assume that the yeast will work through the new wort by Saturday morning, stick the starter in the fridge that day.
-Take the starter out of the fridge on Sunday morning, decant as much wort as possible, let it get to room temp and then pitch it

Will that work? How can I tell for sure that the starter is ready for more wort or ready to be cold crashed? After I decant on Sunday and I let it warm (apparently an optional step) do I have to add more wort to it to get activity going again before pitching it, or do I just have to let it reach room temp?

Thanks again.

 

[brewinginct]

Alright, new idea:

Put the starter in the fridge tonight, let the yeast flocculate, take it out Saturday afternoon, decant, put fresh wort in it Saturday, and then pitch it Sunday while there's some activity (within 24 hours of putting new wort on it Saturday). Then just dump the whole thing in.

My two main questions are:

1) I want this Saison to be as perfect as possible, will throwing the whole one quart starter, wort and all, into the fermenter effect the taste?

2) Is there a better way to do this?

Thanks!

 

[Sithdad]

Underpitching the amount of yeast that is recommended will cause the yeast to be stressed. Because they focus on reproducing so quickly the flavors that they yeast give off can be magnified or mutated to something you don't want at all. By pitching an appropriate amount of yeast you allow them to grow at a relaxed pace and their flavor profile is what it should be.

If your starter vessel is large enough there is no need to refrigerate and decant then add more wort. Once the stepped-up starter slows down (about 12-18 hrs later) put it into the fridge and get the yeast to drop out. Leave it there until brew day where you'll bring it out decant off about 2/3 of the liquid and leave it out to warm up. It should be ready to go by the time you're done brewing.

Don't cut corners when making starters. You can "hit all your numbers" all you want but if your yeast aren't healthy it won't mean a thing.

 

[brewinginct]

Sithdad-

I'm using a half gallon growler, which is equal to 2 quarts. My original starter used 1 quart of wort, so that leaves me JUST enough room. Or does it?

Keeping in mind that I want to brew Sunday afternoon, would it be better at this point to either:

a) put in fridge until Saturday morning, decant, then add a large amount of wort (maybe 1.5 quarts) and let it take off and pitch from there?

or

b) do what you suggested but instead of adding a full quart to the starter just add 3/4 quart mixed with 3/4 cup of dme?


Do I run any risk of the starter totally exploding if I fill it to the top with wort and let it do it's thing? I feel like the krausen or the foam formed from shaking the starter would block up the airlock (or spill out under the tinfoil top) if I were to top it off with fresh wort

 

[brewinginct]

.

 

[billvon]

I'm about to prepare my first yeast starter which will be used for a saison that I will be brewing this Saturday. I have a vial of the White Labs Saison Ale Liquid Yeast (I think it's WLP 565).

I just did a saison with WLP565 (OG 1.055.) I didn't use a starter; just oxygenated and pitched. It started up pretty quickly (8 hours) and has just about finished; it's at 1.014 a week later.

However, other people have had problems with 565; even the manufacturer suggests that people finish the fermentation with a yeast like WLP001 if it stalls completely. I may try 566 next time, which apparently does not have the stalling issues.

 

[jmo88]

I just did a saison with WLP565 (OG 1.055.) I didn't use a starter; just oxygenated and pitched. It started up pretty quickly (8 hours) and has just about finished; it's at 1.014 a week later.

However, other people have had problems with 565; even the manufacturer suggests that people finish the fermentation with a yeast like WLP001 if it stalls completely. I may try 566 next time, which apparently does not have the stalling issues.

3711 is effortless. 95% attenuation without worry and without needing 80F+ temps.

 

[billvon]

3711 is effortless. 95% attenuation without worry and without needing 80F+ temps.

Thanks, I may try that. (The 80F+ temps weren't a problem; I've been having the opposite problem lately!)

 

[brewinginct]

billvon- good to hear you had success with this yeast, my LHBS guy also warned about the risk of stalled fermentation but I'm hoping that between the starter and some good aeration I won't experience that.

My original question from my last post still stands (about the time line for the starter) but now I have a new question:

I'm using WL565 and the recommended temperature range is 70-80F. My basement is probably between 65-70 so I was planning on letting the beer ferment right in the house. Lately the temperature outside has ranged from about 75-90, usually closer to the low to mid 80s.

Is this too high for this yeast? I know that during active fermentation the temperature int he carboy goes up about 10 degrees, so worst case scenario is the temperature in the carboy will reach 95 or so. Is that just way too much heat for this particular strain of yeast?

 

[Sithdad]

I've never had a starter get a krausen like in a fermenter. But, you could just decant a small amount of the liquid, without chilling it, then add the new starter. The amount of yeast you'll lose to the decanted liquid is minimal. Your 3/4 cup water & 3/4 cup dme would be fine.

Starters are ready to be pitched 12-18 hours later. So go ahead and make it now and put it in the fridge for Sunday.