Yeast starter - amber DME ok?

[njohnsoncs]

I'm making a Kolsch this weekend with Wyeast 2565 and a Hefeweizen with Wyeast 3068 the following weekend. I've been told I need to make a yeast starter and I happen to have extra amber DME. Is this DME OK to use for a Kolsch and Hefeweizen?

Any advice or tips you'd recommend for making a starter (I've never made one before)?

 

[TennBrewer]

Light colored DME is best, so I've heard and read but nowhere do I find out why. I say use what you've got, if it's not more than a 2L starter, I wouldn't think it makes much of a difference since you need to decant the starter before pitching.

 

[krenshaw]

that would be fine.. ideally it would be a bit lighter to get closer to the profile of the beer, but you won't notice any difference just make sure everything is sanitized well..

are you using a stirplate or just a swirl method? i always use 100g of DME to 1L of water for a starter, put it on a stirplate a couple days ahead and let it spin.. sometimes i'll step it up if its a bigger beer, most of the time i'll just crash it in the fridge the night before, pour off most of the "beer" on top, swish around whats left and then dump it in the fermenter.. easy peasy!

 

[kh54s10]

Light colored DME is best, so I've heard and read but nowhere do I find out why. I say use what you've got, if it's not more than a 2L starter, I wouldn't think it makes much of a difference since you need to decant the starter before pitching.

^^ This. I would definitely decant the "beer" before pitching so that you don't add the amber flavor to your beer.

 

[njohnsoncs]

that would be fine.. ideally it would be a bit lighter to get closer to the profile of the beer, but you won't notice any difference just make sure everything is sanitized well..

are you using a stirplate or just a swirl method? i always use 100g of DME to 1L of water for a starter, put it on a stirplate a couple days ahead and let it spin.. sometimes i'll step it up if its a bigger beer, most of the time i'll just crash it in the fridge the night before, pour off most of the "beer" on top, swish around whats left and then dump it in the fermenter.. easy peasy!

I'm planning on making a 2L and just swirling it as often as I can. I'll crash it then decant as much of the beer on top before adding.

If I want to brew on Saturday, when should I make the starter?

 

[triethylborane]

I'm making a Kolsch this weekend with Wyeast 2565 and a Hefeweizen with Wyeast 3068 the following weekend. I've been told I need to make a yeast starter and I happen to have extra amber DME. Is this DME OK to use for a Kolsch and Hefeweizen?

Any advice or tips you'd recommend for making a starter (I've never made one before)?

Starter for a hefe? How big a batch are you making? Ive never used a starter for a hefe.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm planning on making a 2L and just swirling it as often as I can. I'll crash it then decant as much of the beer on top before adding.

If I want to brew on Saturday, when should I make the starter?

Make that starter now!

If you happen to have any Fermcap-S, add one drop to your starter wort. It prevents boil overs in the pot you boil the wort in, and excessive foaming in the starter vessel because you don't use constant aeration/agitation

If possible, try to swirl a few times during the night, because that's when most blow offs occur: Lots of active yeast in a sweet wort, and you stand to lose half of the new yeast to the countertop.

That Amber DME is fine it contains some extracted crystal malt. Definitely decant as much as you can after a few days cold crashing. Either leave enough to swirl it up or add some of your Kolsch wort to it to swirl it up and pitch.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

It'll be fine, especially if you decant off the supernatant (the "beer") and just use the slurry. The only concern with using anything but a pale or pilsner-based DME is that you might influence the color or flavor profile, but again, if you decant, it won't matter, as the proportions will be so small compared to the (5 gal?) batch.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Make that starter now!

If you happen to have any Fermcap-S, add one drop to your starter wort. It prevents boil overs in the pot you boil the wort in, and excessive foaming in the starter vessel because you don't use constant aeration/agitation

If possible, try to swirl a few times during the night, because that's when most blow offs occur: Lots of active yeast in a sweet wort, and you stand to lose half of the new yeast to the countertop.

That Amber DME is fine it contains some extracted crystal malt. Definitely decant as much as you can after a few days cold crashing. Either leave enough to swirl it up or add some of your Kolsch wort to it to swirl it up and pitch.

How long does fermentation last? I've seen estimates of about 24 hours. Then I can cold crash in the fridge (or is it better in the freezer?) for 24-48 hours. If I make the starter today (Tuesday), that would bring me to Saturday (ferment Wed, cold crash Thu/Fri), just in time for brew day on Saturday. Does this sound right or are my times off?

Also, I have a Wyeast smack pack. Do I smack it before making the starter or can I just dump it in without smacking?

 

[IslandLizard]

How long does fermentation last? I've seen estimates of about 24 hours. Then I can cold crash in the fridge (or is it better in the freezer?) for 24-48 hours. If I make the starter today (Tuesday), that would bring me to Saturday (ferment Wed, cold crash Thu/Fri), just in time for brew day on Saturday. Does this sound right or are my times off?

Also, I have a Wyeast smack pack. Do I smack it before making the starter or can I just dump it in without smacking?

Try to get that starter going today if you can. You need the time.
At room temps 24 hours for a starter is usually enough. But if the yeast is older (look at the date) or was damaged during transport (mail order hot or frozen truck for 2-3 days) it may need another day or 2.

Yes, smack the pack. The only way to confirm the bubble inside has bursted, is that you can't feel it anymore. Smack again until you're sure. Do this at least 3 hours before adding to starter wort. Shake really well, then leave the pack on counter. You may shake it vigorously every now and then if you want. It should swell up during that time, which means your yeast is viable. Shake again vigorously before adding to your starter wort. For more info, read instructions on their website and around here on HBT or elsewhere. Getting a sanitary transfer is paramount. Sanitize everything well.

Cold crash in fridge, never freezer. Now 2565 is a slooow flocculator, so keep in fridge as long as possible. Remove from fridge after your wort is already in the fermentor, then decant the starter beer on top, leave a little behind so you can swirl it up. Leave the flask with slurry on the counter for an hour to warm up or help it along by slowly warming it up in a small tub with some 50F water for 5 minutes (swirl every minute), then add some warm water to the tub to get it to 60F and swirl again every minute for 5 minutes. The idea is not to shock the yeast. There are other methods.

There is another method "Shaken not Stirred" (do a Google search, there are some details missing in his original post) but you'd need a larger vessel for that like a gallon jug at the least, 5-6 quarts is better. You'd use only a quart of starter wort. You need to shake it like it owes you money for at least a minute until very foamy. IIRC, that needs to be repeated a few more times. Timing seems essential as you pitch when the starter is at high krausen. Do not use Fermcap in the starter, you NEED the foam for this to work. The whole starter gets pitched at the right time.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Try to get that starter going today if you can. You need the time.
At room temps 24 hours for a starter is usually enough. But if the yeast is older (look at the date) or was damaged during transport (mail order hot or frozen truck for 2-3 days) it may need another day or 2.

Yes, smack the pack. The only way to confirm the bubble inside has bursted, is that you can't feel it anymore. Smack again until you're sure. Do this at least 3 hours before adding to starter wort. Shake really well, then leave the pack on counter. You may shake it vigorously every now and then if you want. It should swell up during that time, which means your yeast is viable. Shake again vigorously before adding to your starter wort. For more info, read instructions on their website and around here on HBT or elsewhere. Getting a sanitary transfer is paramount. Sanitize everything well.

Cold crash in fridge, never freezer. Now 2565 is a slooow flocculator, so keep in fridge as long as possible. Remove from fridge after your wort is already in the fermentor, then decant the starter beer on top, leave a little behind so you can swirl it up. Leave the flask with slurry on the counter for an hour to warm up or help it along by slowly warming it up in a small tub with some 50F water for 5 minutes (swirl every minute), then add some warm water to the tub to get it to 60F and swirl again every minute for 5 minutes. The idea is not to shock the yeast. There are other methods.

There is another method "Shaken not Stirred" (do a Google search, there are some details missing in his original post) but you'd need a larger vessel for that like a gallon jug at the least, 5-6 quarts is better. You'd use only a quart of starter wort. You need to shake it like it owes you money for at least a minute until very foamy. IIRC, that needs to be repeated a few more times. Timing seems essential as you pitch when the starter is at high krausen. Do not use Fermcap in the starter, you NEED the foam for this to work. The whole starter gets pitched at the right time.

Thanks for the info. I'm planning on making it tonight. One question though, why should I take the starter out of the fridge only after my (5 gallon) wort is in the fermenter? Shouldn't I try to time it so that my yeast has warmed up slowly and is at pitching temp right when my wort is?

 

[TennBrewer]

IslandLizard is giving good advice, at least it's what I usually do and I've made dozens of starters and haven't gone wrong yet. When making starters, I usually use HomebrewDads.com and make an extra 100B cells which I pour 500ml into a small jar to start another batch some day. I allow 24 hours for fermentation (unless it's old, then add 1 day) in which time the krausen has fallen back into the wort, the starter is a few shades lighter in color than when it started. I cold crash in the fridge (~40*F) for 24 hours or until brew day. On brew day, the first thing I do is take the starter out of the fridge and set it on the kitchen counter to come up to room temperature. I use an old refrigerator for my fermentation chamber and sometimes I will put the starter in there to come up to fermentation temperature. BTW, if you need to make a second or more step after the initial starter fermentation, I decant the beer off the starter yeast cake and warm to room temperature. When the second step wort is cooled, I swirl the starter to put the yeast back into suspension then pitch it into the new starter wort. I have a stir plate so get everything spinning real good, then pitch the slurry. Again, I let the second starter cold crash at least a day then it's ready for pitching. When planning the schedule, a single step starter will be ready on the third day, a second step starter will be ready on the fifth day.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the info. I'm planning on making it tonight. One question though, why should I take the starter out of the fridge only after my (5 gallon) wort is in the fermenter? Shouldn't I try to time it so that my yeast has warmed up slowly and is at pitching temp right when my wort is?

To give it as long as possible to cold crash and flocculate out.

Sure, timing things right is always best.

Take it out and decant an hour before the fermentor is filled, then let the slurry in the flask slowly come to room temp. Otherwise, 2 liters take a long time to warm up to 65F.

 

[njohnsoncs]

I didn't have time to make the starter yesterday so I'll do it today and brew, instead, on Sunday. From the yeast starter calculators I've used they all say to make a 2 liter starter with 7.2 oz of DME but they do not explicitly say how much water to use. Does the 2 liter include just the water or the water and DME?

 

[njohnsoncs]

I made the starter with 2 liters of water and 7.2 ounces of DME (as suggested by various calculators). However, after boiling, I only had 1 liter of wort left. I took a gravity reading and it was about 1.060! I added probably another liter of water until the gravity was at 1.042. This is significant evaporation, or, at least, not what I was expecting especially since evaporation wasn't mentioned in any of the threads/articles I read. Maybe I should have started with 3 liters of water expecting about 1 liter to boil off...

 

[IslandLizard]

I made the starter with 2 liters of water and 7.2 ounces of DME (as suggested by various calculators). However, after boiling, I only had 1 liter of wort left. I took a gravity reading and it was about 1.060! I added probably another liter of water until the gravity was at 1.042. This is significant evaporation, or, at least, not what I was expecting especially since evaporation wasn't mentioned in any of the threads/articles I read. Maybe I should have started with 3 liters of water expecting about 1 liter to boil off...

How long did you boil it for? 3-5 minutes is plenty! It should be fine though, as is.

I always boil in a fairly large (1.5 gallon) stainless pot for 3-5 minutes max, wipe the rim with a Starsaned cloth, put a sanitized lid on and let it steam sanitize on low power for a minute or so. Then stick the pot in the sink or a tub with cold water to chill.
I replace the chilling water once or twice, depending on volume etc.

I do start out with a little extra water to compensate for evaporation, and take a reading with my refractometer and some water to adjust to 1.037 if needed.

 

[njohnsoncs]

How long did you boil it for? 3-5 minutes is plenty! It should be fine though, as is.

I always boil in a fairly large (1.5 gallon) stainless pot for 3-5 minutes max, wipe the rim with a Starsaned cloth, put a sanitized lid on and let it steam sanitize on low power for a minute or so. Then stick the pot in the sink or a tub with cold water to chill.
I replace the chilling water once or twice, depending on volume etc.

I do start out with a little extra water to compensate for evaporation, and take a reading with my refractometer and some water to adjust to 1.037 if needed.

I read somewhere I should boil for 15 minutes so I did. Probably way too long hence the amount of boil off. The only pot I had was my brew pot which is 5 gallons. I didn't use a cover and didn't think of wiping the insides off with starsan before pouring into the starter vessel - hopefully it won't be a problem. I did use an extra 1 ounce of water but I guess it's not enough.

I'll be making another starter next week for a different brew, so I'll try to boil for only 5 minutes to avoid the boil off and start with an extra 0.5 liters of water.

 

[IslandLizard]

I read somewhere I should boil for 15 minutes so I did. Probably way too long hence the amount of boil off. The only pot I had was my brew pot which is 5 gallons. I didn't use a cover and didn't think of wiping the insides off with starsan before pouring into the starter vessel - hopefully it won't be a problem. I did use an extra 1 ounce of water but I guess it's not enough.

I'll be making another starter next week for a different brew, so I'll try to boil for only 5 minutes to avoid the boil off and start with an extra 0.5 liters of water.

I don't know where that 15 minute boil originated from, or what the purpose is. I've read it too.

I add my DME while heating the water in said pot, stir well. Any clumps are dissolved by the time it boils. By that time I've also added my homemade nutrient mix (1/4 tsp of 50/50 DAP/Epsom + a good pinch of ZnCl, per gallon) and a drop of Fermcap-S. I then lower the heat to a good simmer for 3-5 minutes. I don't exactly time it.

There's boil and then there's BOIL. A good simmer is all she needs. Now a large, wide pot over a big heat source will evaporate fast. Don't you have a smaller (gallon) kitchen pot to boil it in on the stove?