Yeast Question

[Cash Is King]

I have brewed about 100 batches of beer... Been at it for over a decade... I do know how to make good beer/ale. So... not really a newbie.

Have a REALLY STUBBORN batch and a question about yeast.

Batch is a dark stout (I forget exactly... started it some time ago)... think some oatmeal in the mix IIRC.

Anyway... tried multiple yeasts initially and nothing... Bad yeast? Old Yeast?

It has been in the carboy for 6 months+ and nothing... I kinda forgot about it.

So Saturday, tasted it and zero fermentation... just malt and sweet... MAYBE a bit acidic... maybe not.

So reboiled... added some finishing aromatic hops and pitched a brand new Safale US-05 (2021 expiration date).

Wort was 67 degrees and yeast was also at temp.

I also use a localized desiccant heater to keep the wort at temp...

Also dialed up to heat to 75 to get the yeast started... yesterday after nothing overnight Saturday

STILL NOTHING.

Like I said, I have been brewing beers for years and have done many many batches, this one has me totally stumped.

Yeast simply will not kick... Thoughts? What am I missing?

Thanks

 

[Cash Is King]

I know I am new to this forum... and on many forums there is the trepidation on newbies.

BUT, please help me think this one out... what in the heck is going on to prevent the yeast from doing a VERY VERY BASIC JOB?

Thanks

 

[brownni5]

Need more info. Gravity readings? Has there been no fermentation since initial pitch? What was the brew type - all grain/extract? How did you forget about it for 6 months? Why did you re-boil? You must know something useful about this brew.

 

[One Eye Ross]

My guess (not from a brewing standpoint, but from a microbiology point of view) there must have been a bacteriostatic or bacteriocidal element involved. Was there too much iodine in the fermenter? Too much bleach? Something in there is killing/stunting the yeast....

 

[Cash Is King]

Need more info. Gravity readings? I quit taking Gravity readings years ago... never really mattered to me.

Has there been no fermentation since initial pitch? ZERO... NONE. I assumed the first or second yeast were weak or old or my wort temp was too cold etc. Never really paid much, but yeast never kicked... and should have... we brew a lot of beer and I know the drill...

What was the brew type - all grain/extract? My best recollection is that it was a clean-up batch (i.e. misc stuff from my cabinet)... I have done all grain, but typically just brew with extract to save time.

How did you forget about it for 6 months? Life happens... sat on the counter in a back corner... not really thinking about it... winter now... so brewing another 50 gallons for summer etc.

Why did you re-boil? To be sanitary just in case... besides zero fermentation and tasted like suger/malt SWEET.

You must know something useful about this brew. Sure I can dump it, but I really want to know why the yeast won't kick... the chemistry is 100% there for fermentation... unless I am missing something... like what would kill/retard the yeast from eating sugar... acid level???????????????

 

[Cash Is King]

My guess (not from a brewing standpoint, but from a microbiology point of view) there must have been a bacteriostatic or bacteriocidal element involved. Was there too much iodine in the fermenter? Too much bleach? Something in there is killing/stunting the yeast....

Thanks... that is exactly what I am thinking... but what?

I use oxy only to clean... and drain very well so very minimal (i.e. never been a problem before).

Iodine in the fermenter... very interesting... I do not know about this, but sounds plausible... what would make the iodine? Excess steeping... or not?

 

[One Eye Ross]

Iodine is used as a sterilizer, if the mix is too strong it would cause problems. But if you use oxy to clean/sterilize that wouldn't be the problem.

 

[Kirkwooder]

Without any gravity readings, how do you know for sure that no fermentation has taken place?

Although rare, fermentation can actually happen without much visible action. Especially if left unobserved for an extended time.

It is likely that your beer fermented fully long ago and just left behind a sweet stout. When boiled again, all the alcohol would evaporate before reaching a boil. I don't really see any way of saving it at this point.

 

[JimRausch]

I tend to agree with Kirkwooder on this one. I think you probably did have fermentation and just didn't know it. You're not a newbie, but to educate the ones that may be reading this: without a SG, you never can tell where you are along the fermentation pathway. And if you don't take and keep good notes, then it's really difficult to avoid repeating mistakes, or conversely repeat good results. One thing I wonder is have you done the exact same recipe in the past and have it ferment drier than you have in this batch? Can't tell if this batch is a mistake or not, and if it is, where the mistake may have been. I'd dump it and move on. Sorry.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I tend to agree with the SG argument here. Without knowing that we're probably at a loss. If you're really dead set on seeing if it's still got anything left go ahead and throw in a pack of belle saison. If that doesn't do anything then you either have something stunting or killing your yeast, or you're out of fermentables. If that yeast can't eat it then it's a pretty safe bet that it's done.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have brewed about 100 batches of beer... Been at it for over a decade... I do know how to make good beer/ale. So... not really a newbie.

In all those years, have you ever used a hydrometer?
That's what we, homebrewers and pros, go by, the tool of choice to determine fermentation has taken place: The change of gravity!

It has been in the carboy for 6 months+ and nothing...

Something has happened, there is no way beer remains unfermented that long. Some microorganism has gotten to it.

 

[brownni5]

Gravity readings are a must - experience level matters not. One may not be concerned with alcohol levels, but there is more to be learned from the hydrometer (or even refractometer).

I don't buy the "old/weak yeast" argument. Unless it has been killed by heat or chemical, I believe yeast is going to turn wort into beer, regardless of it's condition. Now, it may not be good beer...

 

[isomerization]

+1 to above comments

Will also add that it sounds like this was a kitchen sink batch, so could have had a high % of poorly fermentable grains in it too.

 

[Iseneye]

Bloody hell. Asking for help on a fermentation problem with no gravity reading. Leaving a beer for 6 months. Reboiling wort. Dump it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The Belle Saison suggestion is a good one.

Even if it's so unfermentable that most yeasts won't touch it, var. diastaticus should make short work.

But.

Buy a f***ing hydrometer first and check the gravity. At this point if your yeast didn't ferment it something else would have.

If the gravity is still OG levels, then try Belle. If that won't ferment it, some yeast killer is in there (or perhaps a killer yeast, some wild killer strain that can't ferment maltose or something).

But, I'm with others. It probably fermented and you missed it (and mayne didn't perform well or recipe problem, either way it's too sweet).

In which case, boiling it pretty much ruined it. So dump it.

 

[Cash Is King]

In all those years, have you ever used a hydrometer? Yes Sir, I used one in the beginning of my beer making experience (maybe my first 15-20 batches)... very detailed notes and all the stuff you do (or should do) when you are starting out and learning.

... or conversely repeat good results. Great point there... we keep good "general notes" whether using a kit or doing a one off whatever.

When boiled again, all the alcohol would evaporate before reaching a boil.

Another great point... and in anticipation that maybe I had had some unseen fermentation (I have had this happen before, but like y'all said it is rare)... and that alcohol would evaporate with the reboil... I added about #2 of priming sugar during the boil (sorry, forgot to mention that before). Then again... it sure tasted sweet before the reboil (lots of experience in tasting pre-fermentation wort)... PLUS the added sugar absolutely ensures that there is sugar for the yeast to eat.

The yeast is very fresh (Exp 2021)... and I know the lot is good (we used the same yeast (same lot) in a batch we did two weeks ago and had excellent fermentation).

There may be no way to save this batch... and it may end up awful in the end, but at this point I really want to make it kick (or figure out why it won't) more as an education than being pigheaded to save the batch.

What is killing or retarding the yeast from working? I am positive that I am good on sugar, sanitation and temperature.

 

[Vale71]

No way wort is going to hold for 6+ months without all sorts of spontaneous fermentation happening. I think we can consider this to be a troll post...

 

[JimRausch]

No, I may be naïve, but I don't consider 'Cash is King' a troll. I think he's really trying to figure out a mystery. We can sure take fault with his methods that have gotten sloppy over the years, but it's still a legitimate question.

 

[jimfire85]

Throw some Brett in it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Cash Is King. Fred the Cat. Is Mell Weird.

Yeah, this sounds familiar.

 

[Cash Is King]

Some microorganism has gotten to it. That is exactly the type if information I am looking for and why I join this site. What microorganism (Latin or common) so I can do more research.

What is killing or retarding the yeast from working? I am positive that I am good on sugar, sanitation and temperature. That is my exact question.

As an engineer I have NEVER been afraid to ask a question nor tell a Client that "I don't know, but I will figure it out." Only a foolish person (or a liar) claims to know everything... and to know it constantly.

No, I don't use a hydrometer any more... I own them, but don't use them... aerated/frothing wort made them hard to read (I have the cheap ones that came with cheap kits (when I started)... so I quit using them...

I also don't run structural calculations when I hang a shower curtain... call me crazy, but I have enough experience to know I when I am within allowable limits.

Also, we have never really cared what the ABV actually is. We make very good beer and simply keg/bottle it when fermentation is done... Then we drink it.

---------------------------------

So my question remains... and I will again politely ask (being a newbie mandates this)...

Does anyone have any idea what is killing or retarding the yeast from working? I am 100% positive that I am good on sugar, sanitation and temperature. Thanks

 

[Cash Is King]

Troll?

No, I am not a troll... in fact, I abhor trolls...

Sidenote, If any of you shoot or reload ammunition... this is one of my posts on another site (I use the same "Cash Is King" handle there (i.e. folks like to trade alot, but "Cash" always trumps, so I get "Cash" clear right from the beginning.

https://vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1453370

And 20 pages of +1 feedback if you really care... https://vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/users/10071

 

[isomerization]

Some microorganism has gotten to it. That is exactly the type if information I am looking for and why I join this site. What microorganism (Latin or common) so I can do more research.

What is killing or retarding the yeast from working? I am positive that I am good on sugar, sanitation and temperature. That is my exact question.

As an engineer I have NEVER been afraid to ask a question nor tell a Client that "I don't know, but I will figure it out." Only a foolish person (or a liar) claims to know everything... and to know it constantly.

No, I don't use a hydrometer any more... I own them, but don't use them... aerated/frothing wort made them hard to read (I have the cheap ones that came with cheap kits (when I started)... so I quit using them...

I also don't run structural calculations when I hang a shower curtain... call me crazy, but I have enough experience to know I when I am within allowable limits.

Also, we have never really cared what the ABV actually is. We make very good beer and simply keg/bottle it when fermentation is done... Then we drink it.

---------------------------------

So my question remains... and I will again politely ask (being a newbie mandates this)...

Does anyone have any idea what is killing or retarding the yeast from working? I am 100% positive that I am good on sugar, sanitation and temperature. Thanks

As an engineer you should know you can’t be 100% positive on anything, if you don’t have any data to back it up.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

If you own them now would be the time to use them. If you'd like to know what's growing in there there's not much we can tell you. The best way to find out is to send a sample to a lab and have them streak some plates and if anything grows they'll PCR said organisms.

Here's the problem though: you've given us VERY little to work with. No recipe, no process, nothing other than you made a beer and then forgot about it, tinkered with it, and you're not happy with it. That's nowhere near enough for anything more than wild speculation.

 

[Vale71]

That's nowhere near enough for anything more than wild speculation.

Which IMHO is probably what the OP is just trying to elicit...

 

[Soulshine2]

I have brewed about 100 batches of beer... Been at it for over a decade... I do know how to make good beer/ale. So... not really a newbie.

Have a REALLY STUBBORN batch and a question about yeast.

Batch is a dark stout (I forget exactly... started it some time ago)... think some oatmeal in the mix IIRC.

Anyway... tried multiple yeasts initially and nothing... Bad yeast? Old Yeast?

It has been in the carboy for 6 months+ and nothing... I kinda forgot about it.

So Saturday, tasted it and zero fermentation... just malt and sweet... MAYBE a bit acidic... maybe not.

So reboiled... added some finishing aromatic hops and pitched a brand new Safale US-05 (2021 expiration date).

Wort was 67 degrees and yeast was also at temp.

I also use a localized desiccant heater to keep the wort at temp...

Also dialed up to heat to 75 to get the yeast started... yesterday after nothing overnight Saturday

STILL NOTHING.

Like I said, I have been brewing beers for years and have done many many batches, this one has me totally stumped.

Yeast simply will not kick... Thoughts? What am I missing?

Thanks

6 months...seriously?
did you ever do a gravity check ???

 

[Cash Is King]

Which IMHO is probably what the OP is just trying to elicit...

Perfect... I will gladly take WILD SPECULATION.

Some microorganism has gotten to it. That is exactly the type if information I am looking for and why I joined this site. What microorganism (Latin or common) so I can do more research.

It really really is OK to not know... I do not know either... that is why I am asking...

What is killing or retarding the yeast from working? (I am positive that I am good on sugar, sanitation and temperature.). That is my exact question.

The best way to find out is to send a sample to a lab and have them streak some plates and if anything grows they'll PCR said organisms. Great idea... ANY SPECIFIC ORGANISMS I SHOULD ASK FOR?

 

[Kirkwooder]

Have them check for Troglodytartum.

 

[Vale71]

You mean Troglodytarum Fororum, right? That would have been my first guess too.

 

[isomerization]

You mean Troglodytarum Fororum, right? That would have been my first guess too.

*cough* lower case species *cough*