yeast nutrient

[jean]

Hi,

I would like to ask how much yeast nutrient is recomended to add to mead...to what concentration should I target?
I have DAP (Di-Ammonium Phosphate).

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

It usually depends on the packaging, I'm not 100% positive but I think DAP was something like 1-2 tsp per gallon of must, but it should say somewhere on the package.

 

[jean]

I think I have some kind of commercial package (1 Kg)
and there is no specification on it

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

sometimes they fail to put details on bulk packaging, I did a quick check on homebrewheaven.com on there it says 1/2 to 1 ounce per 5 gallons (about 15-30 grams)

 

[jean]

thanks a lot!

 

[jean]

I would like to ask one more question, I have added the DAP to the wort, but before the addition I sanitized it by boiling it with water, then transfering it to sanitized jar and then to the fermenter, when I opened the jar there was very strong smell of ammonia, so I am afraid that the ammonia was lost during the boil...should I sanitize the DAP? if the bubbling will be slow so I will add a little bit more, but how to sanitize it?

 

[liquiditynerd]

I don't ever sanitize additions like that. Utensils yes but ingredients no. 1 tablespoon per gallon before and 1/2 tablespoon per gallon during ferm.

 

[fatbloke]

What's the recipe you're adding it to ? Cos honey musts usually like energiser too.

Plus if you dig around, its normal to use 2/3rds energiser to 1/3rd nutrient (DAP). Then split it up some and add it incrementally (minimum of 2), known as SNA - staggered nutrient addition.

 

[jean]

What's the recipe you're adding it to ? Cos honey musts usually like energiser too.

Plus if you dig around, its normal to use 2/3rds energiser to 1/3rd nutrient (DAP). Then split it up some and add it incrementally (minimum of 2), known as SNA - staggered nutrient addition.

meanwhile just honey (and water)...I can understand why to add nutrients, what contains energiser?

 

[fatbloke]

meanwhile just honey (and water)...I can understand why to add nutrients, what contains energiser?

It's a language thing.

For some strange reason, over in the US, they like to call the DAP material "yeast nutrient", whereas the stuff that contains all the micro minerals they like to term "yeast energiser".

I should have presumed the opposite would be more accurate.

Examples of energiser are, fermaidk, tronozymol, fermax, minavit, etc etc.....

In theory, a honey must, is devoid of the other stuff that yeast need so they should be added/used. A "show" mead, you just need yeast honey and water, yet just the honey and you get a long slow ferment, add DAP and it ferments quicker (and changes name to "traditional"), but can still stress the yeast, yet add "energiser" and you get a complete ferment, with no off flavours...

Well that's the rough idea anyway

 

[jean]

Thanks for a great explanation, so i would call the energiser micronutrients but no one wiuld buy something with " micro" in the name, anyway, six hours after addition of yeast, no bubbles in airlock, i used from brewing to get bubbles in a couple of hours and i am pretty worry about that, couple of reasons i can think 1) there is no problem and i will get the bubbles 2) the ammonium evaporated as i mentioned before and now the yeast lack nitrogen 3) i didn' measure th pH but i can assume that it's arround 7 (maybe i will measure it today), maybe i should lower it with a couple of lemons 4) vitality of yeast, but this should be good

Any ideas/suggestions before i run to buy more yeast?

 

[fatbloke]

Thanks for a great explanation, so i would call the energiser micronutrients but no one wiuld buy something with " micro" in the name, anyway, six hours after addition of yeast, no bubbles in airlock, i used from brewing to get bubbles in a couple of hours and i am pretty worry about that, couple of reasons i can think 1) there is no problem and i will get the bubbles 2) the ammonium evaporated as i mentioned before and now the yeast lack nitrogen 3) i didn' measure th pH but i can assume that it's arround 7 (maybe i will measure it today), maybe i should lower it with a couple of lemons 4) vitality of yeast, but this should be good

Any ideas/suggestions before i run to buy more yeast?

Yeast is strange stuff. You can rehydrate as per the instructions, you can follow a proven recipe exactly, etc and you can still find issues. Especially if you're familiar with other types of making alcohol. Mead making is closer to wine than beer (generally).

For example, its now considered good practice to rehydrate a yeast with GoFerm, which is a specialist energiser for rehydration, that contains virtually no DAP, as this has been found to be less useful in the earliest stages (DAP that is).

So I suspect you have a batch in "lag phase" where the yeast is multiplying, but not yet active enough for visible signs of fermentation.

Your probable answer is 1).

With 2) the DAP will have released some gaseous ammonia, which is what was smelled. Some of it would have been retained.

Your presumption at 3) would be miles (or kilometres ;D ) out. Honey is quite acidic. A fresh must made with distilled or RO water can measure down into the mid-3 pH. Which is one of the reasons its not recommended to add acids at this stage. The yeast tends to like a pH as low as 3.2pH, but because of the fermentation reaction if it dropped below about 3.0 pH, you can get a stuck ferment. Rather than add pH increasing chems, its easiest just to stir the hell out of the must, at least once daily (twice seems the recommend - I get away with once).

This results in aeration of the must, which is good for yeast development, but also creates nucleation points for the carbonic acid in solution to come out as.gaseous CO2. You have to start slowly as the gas release can be quick, causing a fountain of mead/bubbles (put the fermenter in a sink - saves cleaning up a big mess).

For now, just be patient with it, aerate it at least once a day, because once the yeast mass/colony is large enough, you will see bubbling at the airlock.

Nutrient generally looks like white crystals, whereas the energiser is usually a tan coloured powder. Should energiser be not so easy to locate where you are, the a reasonable substitute is a teaspoon or two of bread yeast simmered in boiling water, and cooled to room temp. I also would add a.crushed vitamin B1 tablet.

Google for the gotmead forums, in the top left hand dialogue box, their "NewBee" guide is linked. It's crammed full of guidance, hints and tips. As has been found using wine making materials for meads (yes, mead is very historic, but because of historical changes, there's no great wealth of.ancient knowledge and the method/technique used is relatively modern).

{edit}now on the PC, instead of using my phone, so here's the link to the Gotmead NewBee Guide. It's a lot to read, but worth the effort IMO. Additionally, you don't mention which yeast you used, but given your location, I would suggest that you think of using something that has a high, or at least wide, temperature range - especially if you don't have access to somewhere cool, or air conditioned, like Lalvin K1V-1116, which has a wide range (10 to 35 degrees C), low nutrient requirements, a high alcohol tolerance and has been found to be excellent for traditional meads i.e. honey, water, yeast and nutrient/energiser. Plus it's relatively easily obtained (I usually have to get mine mail ordered - and I use almost exclusively Lallemand/lalvin products because there's more data available than just about any other range/make of yeasts for brewing/mead or wine making).

If you don't already have a hydrometer, get one as it's the only real way of measuring the progress of your brews etc. Airlock activity will only confirm that something is going on, but not what, or how it's progressing.{/edit}

 

[jean]

Thanks a lot for the explanation and the link, i will read it, most of things you assumend was right, about the pH, propably don't have to check although i used very hard water with high carbonate concentration so it' very likely that thw pH didn't drop so much, i also have temperature controled refrigeratir for fermentatuon purposes, so it's 16-17 C i think it's something like 65 F.
About the aeration, i have read about it but i am very concerned about contaminating the must when i open the fermenter and also oxygenation sife effects on taste....what do you think about it?

 

[jean]

So...a little update: the airlock is bubbling steady, about once every 2-3 seconds.

 

[fatbloke]

Thanks a lot for the explanation and the link, i will read it, most of things you assumend was right, about the pH, propably don't have to check although i used very hard water with high carbonate concentration so it' very likely that thw pH didn't drop so much, i also have temperature controled refrigeratir for fermentatuon purposes, so it's 16-17 C i think it's something like 65 F.
About the aeration, i have read about it but i am very concerned about contaminating the must when i open the fermenter and also oxygenation sife effects on taste....what do you think about it?

Our water here, all comes through chalk, so also has high carbonate levels - some researching will show you that for the best results, soft water is best. So it may be worth locating a source of reverse osmosis water - I get mine from the local fish keeper/aquarium store. Either way, you'd likely find, if you have a pH meter, that the differences are small i.e. my water measures about 7.1 pH and if I'm somewhere "up north" where the water comes through granite, it measures about 6.9 pH - the actual issue is the effect that the calcium/magnesium and other "salts" have on flavour.

As for having some refrigerated space for a ferment, that's brilliant - just depends on what size of fermenter (and the cost of any ingredients - honey especially) it will accept - a lot of mead makers here just do 1 gallon (imperial - 4.55 litres) batches, as it's still relatively easy to obtain the 1 gallon glass "demi-john" containers that cider used to be sold in - most of mine are 1 gallon, but I do a few 3 and 5 gallon batches as well. The one yeast which seems particularly critical for temperature of fermentation is Lalvin D47 - which you seem mentioned here and over at gotmead a lot. If it's fermented above 70F/21C, it's prone to producing fusels (higher alcohols - think "rubbing alcohol"). Now a freshly finished batch will often taste "alcohol hot", but that will mellow with time, whereas fusels will give a similar taste in a young mead, but either need extended ageing to mellow or won't mellow at all, irrespective of how long you might age a batch - hence it's better to try and avoid them in the first place.

Most yeasts are fine at about 20C.

As for the aeration and your concerns about oxidation ? Air/O2 is needed by the yeast for cell development in the early stages, which is why a lot of recipes suggest that you either stir or mix the hell out of them first. It's quite normal to aerate once or twice daily down to the 1/3rd sugar break (if the must had a gravity of 1.090 before pitching the yeast, then then 1/3rd break is at 1.060). Obviously you need to open the fermenter to access the must to stir/aerate it, or to take a sample to test it. All the time that a ferment is under way, it's producing CO2 yes ? well any air/O2 that is introduced (not including any that will get mixed in, just what is in any air space above the liquid), is lighter than the CO2 that the ferment is producing, so it's the air/O2 that gets pushed out the airlock first and your ferment is kept safe by a nice blanket of CO2. If you read about here or at Gotmead, you will find examples, particularly from members based in the US (bigger markets and the larger choice of kit available to them), who will actually aerate with pure oxygen, through a stainless steel aquarium "air stone". Now that's a bit over the top for my liking, I just make most of my brews in a bucket (with lid and airlock) initially and to aerate, I just sanitise an electric balloon whisk or a stick blender and use that for a couple of minutes. Not only does it incorporate some air/O2, but it also mixes some of the sunken yeast and other particles up, creating "nucleation points" which cause the dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid) to collect round the nucleation points which rise up as bubbles - just remember, my 1 gallon batches are in 2 gallon buckets, so there's plenty of space for the bubbles to rise as foam, but without spilling out over the top of the bucket - a 1 gallon carboy/demi-john container doesn't have that luxury and can lead to mead eruptions/fountains and a big mess if not carried out carefully and somewhere that can contain any spillage.

You also have an added bonus with meads (especially traditionals - less so with ones that have been made with fruit). They don't oxidise in the same way as grape wines. If you opened a bottle of white grape wine, you usually have to drink the lot, because even if you put some back in a fridge, it doesn't taste as good the next day does it. This doesn't happe quite the same with meads, they take a lot longer before showing signs of oxidation.

Obviously, care should be taken to minimise exposure to air/oxygen once the ferment has finished. This is usually done by careful racking between containers and minimising the amount of airspace in the container used for ageing/clearing etc. As above with US members who may use pure O2 for aeration, some also have the kit and ability to leave more airspace, but flood it with a protective layer of CO2. While some have to work out how to reduce the airspace with topping up, either with water, alcohol/vodka, mead of a similar type, etc etc, even some sort of inert material that can be sanitised - childrens glass marbles are frequently mentioned but you need quite a lot and getting them into a glass fermenter, so they don't smash the bottom out of it can be not as easy as it sounds!

So...a little update: the airlock is bubbling steady, about once every 2-3 seconds.

:rockin: You've got the ferment going, brilliant. It's up to you what you want to do next. Well done and good luck with the brew.