Yeast-Free Beer Using Recombinant DNA Techniques?

[Bensiff]

I love scientists. If there's one thing I hate, it's speculation, and you guys make it so we don't have to.

The world be such a better place if the majority of the population valued real knowledge. We prefer to concentrate on what we believe in, not on reality. We have collected so much knowledge and empirical evidence about our amazing world. Anyone can become pretty knowledgeable about any subject just by reading a few good books. I could spend forever reading non-fiction.

Define real

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Hey, did you know that if you put beans in chili, it's no longer chili anymore?

Yes. But bacteria and beer is as old as barley. Somewhat symbiotic in fact.

 

[mc_eric]

Chris has already explained that bacteria can be genetically selected to produce a specified range of esters or phenols.

I don't think he said anything about esters or phenols, just proteins. Though I'm sure that bacteria could be coaxed into producing the flavor compounds associated w/ yeast. Yeast produce all kinds of craziness, proteins, esters, ketones, aldehydes...you name it. It'd be a hell of a lot of work just to figure out exactly what all those trace compounds are, let alone trying to get bacteria to produce those.

It's funny, I was actually just thinking about something like this (like, literally a couple minutes before I saw this thread), stemming from something I read that seems to indicate that brettanomyces isn't capable of producing much in the way of fusel alcohols (I've actually heard that before from a couple of different places), and I was kind of wondering if it would be possible to engineer some kind of "super yeast" that would only produce favorable flavor compounds, even under stress. But I think it would be way more work than it's worth to try to engineer something like that, when you can get really good, really clean yeast already. Or just propagate yeast generation after generation until you get something really good.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about, but realistically it probably would be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I don't think he said anything about esters or phenols, just proteins. Though I'm sure that bacteria could be coaxed into producing the flavor compounds associated w/ yeast. Yeast produce all kinds of craziness, proteins, esters, ketones, aldehydes...you name it. It'd be a hell of a lot of work just to figure out exactly what all those trace compounds are, let alone trying to get bacteria to produce those.

It's funny, I was actually just thinking about something like this (like, literally a couple minutes before I saw this thread), stemming from something I read that seems to indicate that brettanomyces isn't capable of producing much in the way of fusel alcohols (I've actually heard that before from a couple of different places), and I was kind of wondering if it would be possible to engineer some kind of "super yeast" that would only produce favorable flavor compounds, even under stress. But I think it would be way more work than it's worth to try to engineer something like that, when you can get really good, really clean yeast already. Or just propagate yeast generation after generation until you get something really good.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about, but realistically it probably would be more trouble than it's worth.

"Just for your personal information, bacteria (as a mixed population) produce and have available far more compounds (acids/ esters)...."

I was going with that.

 

[mc_eric]

Ahh, i didn't catch that bit

 

[rexbanner]

Define real

Concrete data, facts, etc. We have a lot of popular TV personalities and authors who don't rely on any of that. A lot of people don't have any respect for independent research, which is really a shame.

Think about it. If you want to know how to use a program or how to play an instrument, which would you prefer? Real information, or some blowhard's misguided opinion? Seems obvious right?

Now let's say you're interested in a new tax plan being proposed. Which would you prefer to rely on, CBO and Tax Foundation research, or some person with zero qualifications talking about it on TV? Seems obvious, right? One would hope.

 

[remilard]

Concrete data, facts, etc. We have a lot of popular TV personalities and authors who don't rely on any of that. A lot of people don't have any respect for independent research, which is really a shame.

Think about it. If you want to know how to use a program or how to play an instrument, which would you prefer? Real information, or some blowhard's misguided opinion? Seems obvious right?

Now let's say you're interested in a new tax plan being proposed. Which would you prefer to rely on, CBO and Tax Foundation research, or some person with zero qualifications talking about it on TV? Seems obvious, right? One would hope.

The CBO doesn't research taxes, so I guess the TV person.

 

[boss429]

I want some of that glow in the dark yeast for haloween

 

[rexbanner]

The CBO doesn't research taxes, so I guess the TV person.

Yes, they do. I see what you're going for, but you failed.

http://www.cbo.gov/publications/bysubject.cfm?cat=33

Here you go.

 

[shanecb]

Wow the amount of negative "who cares because that's not what we're doing"-type posts in this thread is surprising. This is intellectual curiosity people, why all the negativity? It wasn't a stupid initial question; I thought it was a pretty good thought to consider.

 

[mc_eric]

Wow the amount of negative "who cares because that's not what we're doing"-type posts in this thread is surprising. This is intellectual curiosity people, why all the negativity? It wasn't a stupid initial question; I thought it was a pretty good thought to consider.

Yeah, I was surprised too. Especially considering (like I said before) that I was thinking about exactly the same thing not 2 minutes before I logged on HBT and saw this thread.

 

[brewzombie]

I want some of that glow in the dark yeast for haloween

That's funny. Back when I was working on my Biochem PhD, my brewing buddy and I briefly looked into engineering brewing yeast to secrete green fluorescent protein (GFP) for St. Patty's Day beer. We abandoned the thought once we discovered that it would take a huge concentration of GFP in the beer to visibly glow. I figured it would be too difficult for me to get the yeast to produce that much GFP plus all the alcohol etc. Not to mention a hundred other hurdles.

 

[boss429]

I agree, yeast are haploid organisms, so genetically modified yeast should be easier to make than genetically modified salmon....

scientists shoul make super neutral yeast so all I would taste is my hops.

 

[Bensiff]

Concrete data, facts, etc. We have a lot of popular TV personalities and authors who don't rely on any of that. A lot of people don't have any respect for independent research, which is really a shame.

Think about it. If you want to know how to use a program or how to play an instrument, which would you prefer? Real information, or some blowhard's misguided opinion? Seems obvious right?

Now let's say you're interested in a new tax plan being proposed. Which would you prefer to rely on, CBO and Tax Foundation research, or some person with zero qualifications talking about it on TV? Seems obvious, right? One would hope.

I was teasing...balancing science with philosophy there...a discussion better left for an evening of session beers in a nice pub.

 

[rexbanner]

I was teasing...balancing science with philosophy there...a discussion better left for an evening of session beers in a nice pub.

Word I hear ya.

 

[drogheda]

to those wondering why you would want a yeast free brew, it's because of people like me.

I am allergic to yeast, but I love beer so much, but I also have asthma so I really can't drink it. if there was a yeast free beer I could purchase it, drink it and not have to worry if I am going to have an asthma attack (which has happend, er trip....)

 

[millsware]

to those wondering why you would want a yeast free brew, it's because of people like me.

I am allergic to yeast, but I love beer so much, but I also have asthma so I really can't drink it. if there was a yeast free beer I could purchase it, drink it and not have to worry if I am going to have an asthma attack (which has happend, er trip....)

Can you not drink any beer or just unfiltered beer?

Also, I have thought about genetically engineering yeast to only produce certain flavor compounds, or at least to not produce off-flavor compounds. Then you could ferment higher, which means faster, which I'm sure that the big boy brewers would love. Also, hops act as a preservative, so the bacteria would need to be resistant to hops as well.

However, (gets up on soapbox) sometimes we work so hard to use the latest technology that we end up missing the forest for the trees. Kind of like all the crazy stuff that modern agriculture does to make our food.

Sorry, it's early.

 

[drogheda]

any beer. I can if I take some benedryl (and I hate taking that stuff) but even then I start to get manifestations of my allergic-ness

I've actually been meaning to look up yeast free beer for a while and it was that search that led me to this page... I thought I would be swamped with lots of filtered yeast free beer but... I haven't.

actually I have found a lot of mis-information and questions and no real answers. like one person who told me that most big company beers (coors, bush etc...) don't have yeast because they are pasteurized.... wrong, coors was actually the beer my doctor used as an example (doesn't matter because I hate domestic beers anyway but still). got a couple of conversations about live yeast and dead yeast and "you can drink dead yeast" which is also mis-information because... manifestation of allergies.

I just don't understand why there are no beers without yeast when virtually all spirits do not have yeast (and yes I can drink hard liquor... tequila is my main drink). I guess part of the flavor of beer is from the yeast in the beer?

I just find it strange that no company has capitalized on this. talking to doctors and allergists you find out that there are a lot of people that a really allergic to yeast, way more than I thought so on the same thought there are a lot of people that don't drink beer simply because they are allergic to yeast and are forced to drink mixed drinks and hard spirits, even though most are like me and love beer and would be forced to buy 1 brand of beer. seems like a brilliant marketing strategy.

hmm, maybee it's time to start my own micro.

 

[millsware]

Liquor is originally made with yeast but then distilled, so the part that you drink was boiled out of the liquid containing the yeast and then condensed.

 

[NuclearRich]

Wow the amount of negative "who cares because that's not what we're doing"-type posts in this thread is surprising. This is intellectual curiosity people, why all the negativity? It wasn't a stupid initial question; I thought it was a pretty good thought to consider.

I agree. If you don't want to "fix" what "isn't broken" then stay satisfied with the uneventful, while I look toward the cutting edge. These are really interesting ideas. While I do love the beer we all produce, I love ideas more.

I do think that if you ferment without yeast you couldn't call it beer. However, you could make a beer-like product. Theoretically.

 

[smokinghole]

to those wondering why you would want a yeast free brew, it's because of people like me.

I am allergic to yeast, but I love beer so much, but I also have asthma so I really can't drink it. if there was a yeast free beer I could purchase it, drink it and not have to worry if I am going to have an asthma attack (which has happend, er trip....)

Do you know if it's just Saccharomyces spp. that is a problem for you? Do you know if you could drink a beer brewed with Brettanomyces spp.? Can you eat bread? Is there a difference between lagers and ale yeast for you? Do you know more about what in the yeast causes the allergic reaction? I'm not trying to be an butthead but if we or you knew more we could better assist with your beer drinking problem (well lack of beer drinking). Can you drink wine?

 

[statseeker]

I would think that Brett, since it's already a bacterium that flourishes in beer, would be the answer to the OP's particular question. We (homebrewers) already do 100% Brett fermentations and it works out very well. There isnt any yeast involved, in as far as I know. Now, if you could speed that process up (I believe part B of the OPs post), that would be cool, if for nothing else than to have brew earlier.

 

[emjay]

I would think that Brett, since it's already a bacterium that flourishes in beer, would be the answer to the OP's particular question. We (homebrewers) already do 100% Brett fermentations and it works out very well. There isnt any yeast involved, in as far as I know. Now, if you could speed that process up (I believe part B of the OPs post), that would be cool, if for nothing else than to have brew earlier.

Brett is yeast, not bacteria

 

[Woodbury419]

Hello, I've been a quiet member for quite awhile. Also my equipment in my profile is out of date...lol. Im from the states and traveled to many different breweries across the nation. Im currently in England learning about that real English Ales are all about then I'll be going to Belgium, Germany, etc. (Im in the military in case you're wonderin). Im studying Microbiology and Im a huge fan of the cutting edge of technology. Although there are things to keep traditional as well. But i do agree with advancements in fermentation with yeast free brews. For people who are allergic to yeast it would be a blessing. Many yeast strains genome sequences have been laid out. And S. Cerevisae is one of the most researched and studied lil critter out there because of how fast it reproduces and other beneficiaries it has. Genetic modifications to bacteria is possible to mimic yeast fermentation capabilities, there's no fear of those genetic modified bacterium producing lethal toxins or spreading infection to humans. Its just the demand for that isn't there yet i think. There's always new critters being found everyday. Some of which do not have carbon based dna..but live in the presence of arsenic. Which is really toxic to us, some bacterium are naturally radioresistant to radiation. Some of them have been looked into for energy because they produce electricity and co2as a by product and reproduce in the presence of iron when given glucose. But i do believe the Japanese genetically modified yeast for their lagers if Im correct? Although traditional brewers are like "oh noes"....lol. But me personally if an algae or bacterium was created id use it along with our long time old yeasty friends.

 

[emjay]

any beer. I can if I take some benedryl (and I hate taking that stuff) but even then I start to get manifestations of my allergic-ness

I've actually been meaning to look up yeast free beer for a while and it was that search that led me to this page... I thought I would be swamped with lots of filtered yeast free beer but... I haven't.

actually I have found a lot of mis-information and questions and no real answers. like one person who told me that most big company beers (coors, bush etc...) don't have yeast because they are pasteurized.... wrong, coors was actually the beer my doctor used as an example (doesn't matter because I hate domestic beers anyway but still). got a couple of conversations about live yeast and dead yeast and "you can drink dead yeast" which is also mis-information because... manifestation of allergies.

I just don't understand why there are no beers without yeast when virtually all spirits do not have yeast (and yes I can drink hard liquor... tequila is my main drink). I guess part of the flavor of beer is from the yeast in the beer?

I just find it strange that no company has capitalized on this. talking to doctors and allergists you find out that there are a lot of people that a really allergic to yeast, way more than I thought so on the same thought there are a lot of people that don't drink beer simply because they are allergic to yeast and are forced to drink mixed drinks and hard spirits, even though most are like me and love beer and would be forced to buy 1 brand of beer. seems like a brilliant marketing strategy.

hmm, maybee it's time to start my own micro.

I'm really confused here.

All beer is made with yeast. The difference with Coors, Bud, Miller, etc (and even MANY microbreweries) is that they filter it so finely that what ends up in the bottle has no yeast at all. Can you eat bread?

Sounds like perhaps you're allergic to a fermentation byproduct of beer yeast, because I have a hard time imagining how other alcoholic beverages would still be fine.

In fact, I wouldn't even be surprised if you were actually allergic to the hops. That would really make everything you've said make complete sense. Perhaps look into brewing gruit (a drink very similar to beer except that it uses a variety of herbs instead of hops) and see if you still get an allergic reaction.

 

[shanecb]

I would think that Brett, since it's already a bacterium that flourishes in beer, would be the answer to the OP's particular question. We (homebrewers) already do 100% Brett fermentations and it works out very well. There isnt any yeast involved, in as far as I know. Now, if you could speed that process up (I believe part B of the OPs post), that would be cool, if for nothing else than to have brew earlier.

Brettanomyces is yeast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

I thought it was bacteria at one point as well

 

[statseeker]

Yeah I picked that up after I posted it. I hear them interchanged in blending so much that it's become one to one in my brain.