yeast farming

[Todd]

The instructions say you should use your washed yeast for one month, ok. How long could you get away with leaving it in the fridge and still get the same results as if you used it within said month? 2 months, 3 or is the one month really all the longer the yeast would last without tossing in a tsp of sugar, dme, etc...? And would, lets say, tossing in a bit of DME/sugar/honey/Wheat malt, whatever a good idea(of course you'd bring it out of the fridge to ferment those sugars)?

In how to brew I'm pretty sure he said yeast in the fridge will last six months. Can anyone confirm that?

 

[homebrewer_99]

The instructions say you should use your washed yeast for one month, ok. How long could you get away with leaving it in the fridge and still get the same results as if you used it within said month? 2 months, 3 or is the one month really all the longer the yeast would last without tossing in a tsp of sugar, dme, etc...? And would, lets say, tossing in a bit of DME/sugar/honey/Wheat malt, whatever a good idea(of course you'd bring it out of the fridge to ferment those sugars)?

Do you feed the yeast in your vials? No? That's what I thought. So there's no reason to feed your washed yeast. You use it to make a starter next time...

 

[Grimsawyer]

Everyone keeps saying they get their yeast in vials.... I want a few! All I get when I do liquid yeast is the smack packs. Not sure if my LHBS has any vials... I havn't seen any, of course, I havn't looked for them either. Six months on washed yeast, eh? I think I'll play with that then. If it were one month not sure if I would bother. I don't seem to stick to any one yeast long enough. I havn't figured out what my favorites are yet, hehehe
Starters... can you use corn sugar instead of dme? (corn sugar is $4 for 5 lbs where DME is $5 a pound) How much water do you use? How much fermentable sugars do you use? When you use a smack pack is that more or less like dumping yeast into a starter or does a starter generate a buttload more sugar hungry yeast?

 

[Todd]

Everyone keeps saying they get their yeast in vials.... I want a few! All I get when I do liquid yeast is the smack packs. Not sure if my LHBS has any vials... I havn't seen any, of course, I havn't looked for them either. Six months on washed yeast, eh? I think I'll play with that then. If it were one month not sure if I would bother. I don't seem to stick to any one yeast long enough. I havn't figured out what my favorites are yet, hehehe
Starters... can you use corn sugar instead of dme? (corn sugar is $4 for 5 lbs where DME is $5 a pound) How much water do you use? How much fermentable sugars do you use? When you use a smack pack is that more or less like dumping yeast into a starter or does a starter generate a buttload more sugar hungry yeast?

I think a smack pack is a mini starter.

My HBS only has vials, I actually wish they had the smack packs.

This is probably a stupid question but what are the vials full of? Just yeast and water?

 

[cweston]

I think a smack pack is a mini starter.

My HBS only has vials, I actually wish they had the smack packs.

This is probably a stupid question but what are the vials full of? Just yeast and water?

Right--the smackpacks contain a mini-starter which mixes with the yeast slurry when you smack it. It's not a large enough starter to cause the yeast to multiply: it just "rouses" the yeast. The main function of this is to assure the brewer that the yeast is good before pitching, IMHO.

If you are making a starter, you don't even need to smack the smack pack, although I usually do--again, just to be sure the yeast is viable.

The vials are full of yeast slurry, just like what you save after yeast washing. Just like with the yeast you save yourself, I have occaisionally had a problem with the vials foaming over when you open them.

 

[ryser2k]

So I tried this yeast washing method for the first time on Saturday... I have a quart jar full of what looks like viable yeast, but how can I know for sure? Boil up a little DME and make a mini-starter just to test it?

 

[cweston]

So I tried this yeast washing method for the first time on Saturday... I have a quart jar full of what looks like viable yeast, but how can I know for sure? Boil up a little DME and make a mini-starter just to test it?

I guess you could do that, but I wouldn't.

You could pitch a bunch of slurry straight away (bring it to pitching temp first.) You'd still probably be pitching more cells than when you make a starter and use a smack-pack or vial of White Labs slurry.

But since you're concerned about the viability of your harvested yeast, when you're ready to use it, make a small starter a couple days ahead of time and pitch it into the starter. In this case the starter isn't really to mulitply cells so much as to revive the yeast and reassure you that it is ready to go.

 

[Todd]

If my starter still has a fairly thick foam on top does that mean it is not finished?

 

[cweston]

If my starter still has a fairly thick foam on top does that mean it is not finished?

Yes.

You can pitch at this stage--in fact, some folks say that is the best stage to pitch a starter.

The disadvantage of pitching at high krauesen is that the yeast is still in suspension, so you'll have to pitch the whole thing. (Rather than waiting for the yeast to drop off, when you can pour off the fermented wort and just pitch the yeast.)

If your starter is small, it's not a big deal. With a really big starter, you wouldn't want to dilute your beer with all of that starter beer.

 

[Todd]

Yes.

You can pitch at this stage--in fact, some folks say that is the best stage to pitch a starter.

The disadvantage of pitching at high krauesen is that the yeast is still in suspension, so you'll have to pitch the whole thing. (Rather than waiting for the yeast to drop off, when you can pour off the fermented wort and just pitch the yeast.)

If your starter is small, it's not a big deal. With a really big starter, you wouldn't want to dilute your beer with all of that starter beer.

Ok so this is a good time, now I can't brew till the weekend, thursday at the earliest. Once the krausen disipates I should stick it in the fridge right? Then pour off the wort and warm it back up to pitch temp for the weekend. Should I put some more wort in to get them active again brew day?

I've been trying to shake it up a lot and I can already tell there are quite a few more yeasties than I started with.

 

[cweston]

Should I put some more wort in to get them active again brew day?

I've been trying to shake it up a lot and I can already tell there are quite a few more yeasties than I started with.

No--if you ferment it out and chill it (to drop the yeast out), all you need to do on brew day is bring it up to pitching temp and pour or siphon off the beer & pitch the yeast.

 

[Todd]

No--if you ferment it out and chill it (to drop the yeast out), all you need to do on brew day is bring it up to pitching temp and pour or siphon off the beer & pitch the yeast.

Great thanks. At some point I should have all the basics down.

 

[tockeyhockey]

so i'm reading this thread and i got to thinking -- what would happen if you simply put a new batch of wort ontop of a just finished fermenting yeast cake? would the fermentation process start anew?

 

[Todd]

so i'm reading this thread and i got to thinking -- what would happen if you simply put a new batch of wort ontop of a just finished fermenting yeast cake? would the fermentation process start anew?

yep, we did that with the last brew.

 

[Todd]

Everyone I just need to make sure I understand. If there is still foam on the top of my starter it is still fermenting and I should either pitch the entire thing or keep waiting till I pour off the wort? When I shake things up in the jar chunks of what I think are yeast start floating around from the foam, will all of that settle to the bottom once it is finished?

I think what happened is I used too much wort, I initially started with 1 quart and then added another half a quart to it a couple days later.

I wish I could post a picture to be sure, the foam is probably 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick, I can't see any churning or anything taking place.

 

[cweston]

Everyone I just need to make sure I understand. If there is still foam on the top of my starter it is still fermenting and I should either pitch the entire thing or keep waiting till I pour off the wort? When I shake things up in the jar chunks of what I think are yeast start floating around from the foam, will all of that settle to the bottom once it is finished?

I think what happened is I used too much wort, I initially started with 1 quart and then added another half a quart to it a couple days later.

I wish I could post a picture to be sure, the foam is probably 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick, I can't see any churning or anything taking place.

I think you've got it all correct: I'd say your starter is still actively fermenting, with the yeast mostly in supension. If you pitch it now, pitch the whole thing. (And 1.5 quarts is not such a huge amount--that'd be about 7% by volume of a 5.5 gal primary.)

Otherwise, let it fully ferment and the yeast will drop out of suspension.

 

[Grimsawyer]

so i'm reading this thread and i got to thinking -- what would happen if you simply put a new batch of wort ontop of a just finished fermenting yeast cake? would the fermentation process start anew?

As in, just racked from primary to secondary leaving the yeast cake, AKA trube, behind then dumping in your next batch of wort right on in?

 

[cweston]

As in, just racked from primary to secondary leaving the yeast cake, AKA trube, behind then dumping in your next batch of wort right on in?

That's right. Then insert blow-off tube and stand back--this makes for a really turbo-charged fermentation.

 

[Grimsawyer]

That's right. Then insert blow-off tube and stand back--this makes for a really turbo-charged fermentation.

SWEET!!! I CAN'T wait to try this!!!!! hehe, thanks guys :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: what is the fastest fermentation has started cause of this technique? 1 hour @ full krausen?

 

[Todd]

SWEET!!! I CAN'T wait to try this!!!!! hehe, thanks guys :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: what is the fastest fermentation has started cause of this technique? 1 hour @ full krausen?

I used about half the yeast cake on a stout and within an hour we have very fast bubbling, it was in a bucket so I don't know what was happening inside.

 

[user 4295]

I have done this method several times with great success. One thing to keep in mind though and that is the order in which beers are pitched onto the yeast cakes of previous batches is important. What I mean by that is you wouldn't want to pitch a beer with an OG of 1.050 onto the yeast cake from an Imperial Stout that had an OG of 1.090. The yeast would be tuckered out and stressed. You also would probably not want to pitch a light American ale onto the yeast cake of a smoked porter, for fear of imparting the strong character of the porter into the lighter flavored and colored American ale. You get the idea.

The last time I did this I pitched a Russian Imperial Stout with an OG of 1.090 onto the yeast cake from a Creme Stout that had an OG of 1.060. I pitched the yeast at 6:00 pm, and had a krausen in full blow off by 10:00 pm! It was the most violent fermentation that I have experienced so far.

 

[ryser2k]

Don't mean to hijack the thread... but...

How do you like those Better Bottles? Are they 6 gal? I was thinking of picking up one or two to replace my 7gal plastic bucket and 5gal glass carboy as primary and secondary.

Is it worth having the spigot on there?

 

[andre the giant]

I just racked my Doppelbock to secondary yesterday, and since the yeast cake was WY2206 Bavarian Lager, the same yeast that my Helles recipe calls for, I decided to use the cake for that beer. But the Doppelbock trub has lots of chocolate malt aroma and whatnot, and I didn't want this to taint the beer, so I washed the yeast first. I ended up with about 2 quarts of good yeast and pitched one of those into the Helles. Within 4 hours, we had liftoff! By hour number 10, there was a good 2-3 inch layer of krausen. I placed the fermenter in the beer fridge and started lowering the temp. (the doppelbock is still at room temp, but will go in the fridge when I get home...)

I had never washed yeast before, but it seems like an easy relatively quick way to save some bucks. My hint, use distilled water. Waiting for the boiled water to cool is kinda a pain in the ARSE.

 

[user 4295]

Don't mean to hijack the thread... but...

How do you like those Better Bottles? Are they 6 gal? I was thinking of picking up one or two to replace my 7gal plastic bucket and 5gal glass carboy as primary and secondary.

Is it worth having the spigot on there?

I love them, and use them exclusively now. I have two 6 gallon for primary and two 5 gallon for secondary. The racking adapters and high flow valves are a must, IMHO. If you would like some more info, feel free to PM me.

John

 

[runhard]

The yeast fitness mutation rate is fairly low but spontaneous mutation do happen in fungi; not as often as bacteria but it happens. The storage method of yeast, the media(food) it is grown up on for storage and how long it is quiescent a 4Celsius all affect the yeast. The fact that one must vent the storage vessel in the refrigerator periodically indicates the yeast are continuing to grow. If the yeast are stored in water and they're trying to survive on little to no nutrient then alternative gene pathways are turned on and others shut down or down regulated all affecting the flavour profile of that yeast. Then we toss them into a sugar rich wort with all kinds of yeast nutrients, we're just asking for spontaneous mutations to result. A better method for storing yeast is to take your slurry and make glycerol/glycerine, or DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) stocks and store them in the freezer. 2 milliliters or about 1/2 teaspoon stocks store easily in the freezer and you can make tons of them. Simply remove, thaw slowly on ice, and pour into 1 liter of sterilized wort to get a starter. Not too much trouble but you'll maintain the desire flavor profile.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I was reading this the other day, and it seemed there was a bit of confusion about yeast washing, so I took some pics of the process I used for some White Labs WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch yeast. Sterilization is KEY! I use StarSan primarily, wear rubber gloves, flame the mouths of all glass containers, and avoid breathing directly into or onto any of the equipment. Here goes:

First I harvested some of the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter, put it into a sterile White Labs vial, and let it settle.

Then I made a one cup starter in a 1L Erlenmeyer flask with 1 oz of light DME and 1/4 tsp of ID Carlson's Yeast Energizer (boiled and cooled). I shook the top third of the harvest back into solution, trying to avoid disturbing the coagulated protein mass at the bottom. I pitched that top third into my 1 cup starter and placed it on my stirplate overnight.

I stepped the starter up to 3 cups by adding 2 cups of water boiled with 2 oz of light DME and 1/2 tsp of the yeast nutrient. The solution remained on the stirplate for another 2 days before I cooled it in the refrigerator and let it settle.

I poured the liquid off, leaving the "washed" yeast at the bottom of the flask.
In order to easily pour the yeast, I added just a little bit of sterilized (boiled and cooled) water and swirled the flask. I wound up with two vials like this:

Hope this helps clear up the process. Sorry if that was a bit of a long post.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Forgot...I did not use an acid wash in the process above. I am reasonably assured of my sanitation and I wound up with a pretty homogenous solution.

 

[Grimsawyer]

I saw on a flier/etc... at my LHBS that the Rogue brewery is getting together with WYeast and selling it's PAC MAN yeast from september through october. Limited availablity of their yeast strain. My brain instantly thought of this thread. Sure, saving a few bucks and reuse of yeast is fun, but to do it to a yeast that you can't get all the time would be really sweet!(Dead Guy Ale clone HERE I COME!!!!) Also when I was there I skimmed an article on freezing yeast. It says that if you just toss it in the freezer it will rupture the cells of the yeast killing it all unless you add your yeast to a 30% solution of glycerine to prevent that from happening. Think I might be making a stirr plate soon, playing with some flame and goofin with starters and yeast propagation, just got to get AG capable first.... (think I am noticing an off taste that you can't aviod with extract. I'm not sure if there is one but there is one flavor that is the same in all my brews that isn't in an AG brew I had a few days ago.... I swear it's cause all I have done is extract. someone please tell me I'm not crazy. hehehe, well, for thinking that anyhow. Everyone knows I'm buckets of crackers!)

 

[chillHayze]

...
Also when I was there I skimmed an article on freezing yeast. It says that if you just toss it in the freezer it will rupture the cells of the yeast killing it all unless you add your yeast to a 30% solution of glycerine to prevent that from happening. ...

There was a post above by runhard reguarding this. I would be interested in more information, myself.

...
think I am noticing an off taste that you can't aviod with extract. I'm not sure if there is one but there is one flavor that is the same in all my brews that isn't in an AG brew I had a few days ago.... I swear it's cause all I have done is extract. someone please tell me I'm not crazy. ...

There is a slight "twang" associated with extract brewing. The better your methods are, the easier it is to minimize this effect. But even with the best methods it remains slightly.

 

[Todd]

I was reading this the other day, and it seemed there was a bit of confusion about yeast washing, so I took some pics of the process I used for some White Labs WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch yeast. Sterilization is KEY! I use StarSan primarily, wear rubber gloves, flame the mouths of all glass containers, and avoid breathing directly into or onto any of the equipment. Here goes:

First I harvested some of the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter, put it into a sterile White Labs vial, and let it settle.

Then I made a one cup starter in a 1L Erlenmeyer flask with 1 oz of light DME and 1/4 tsp of ID Carlson's Yeast Energizer (boiled and cooled). I shook the top third of the harvest back into solution, trying to avoid disturbing the coagulated protein mass at the bottom. I pitched that top third into my 1 cup starter and placed it on my stirplate overnight.

I stepped the starter up to 3 cups by adding 2 cups of water boiled with 2 oz of light DME and 1/2 tsp of the yeast nutrient. The solution remained on the stirplate for another 2 days before I cooled it in the refrigerator and let it settle.

I poured the liquid off, leaving the "washed" yeast at the bottom of the flask.
In order to easily pour the yeast, I added just a little bit of sterilized (boiled and cooled) water and swirled the flask. I wound up with two vials like this:

Hope this helps clear up the process. Sorry if that was a bit of a long post.

That stirplate really worked wonders, I just did a traditional starter, I did shake it frequently, and I got about half of what you did. I need to get one of those stir plates..