Yeast and fermentable sugars for an IPA extract - hops

[Nubiwan]

I had a mind to dive into an all grain job in January, but figured, since I am just finding my way back into brewing then I'd just get a third extract going, then do some reading on the grain experiment.

I got a Morgan's Canadian IPA. It comes with its own no name yeast. Instructions suggest either 1k of dextrose, or 1.35 of high malt glucose or light malt extract as my sugars with the extract. Can someone explain what difference either of these might make on the outcome? I am chasing that hoppy IPA feel, but nothing too overboard.

I read somewhere that this is a clone of Alexander Keith's. I hope not, because that's a terrible commercial IPA, that tastes like any other Canadian bottled ale. Therfore, enhancing my taste, aromas, might be worth testing.

Also yeast. Is it worth experimenting with a different yeast, and what yeasts are best suited to my IPA.

Finally, dry hopping. Might give it ago once I am close o the end of fermentation. What hops are good for an IPA? Can I just dumpy the hops in the primary, a few days before I rack and bottle?

Finally, finally. Ferment temps for an IPA? Same as a lager ok? I did my lager around 62 degrees. That be ok for an IPA? Can/should I crash my IPA too? I crashed my Amber and I am pretty happy the way it turned out.

So many questions. Off to my local HBS tomorrow, so any swift responses and opinions greatly appreciated.

 

[Nubiwan]

This needs to be moved to the beginners thread, as I have clearly misinterpreted the title of this forum to mean simple extract brewing, when it appears to be far more advanced.

 

[HB_ATL73]

I got a Morgan's Canadian IPA. It comes with its own no name yeast. Instructions suggest either 1k of dextrose, or 1.35 of high malt glucose or light malt extract as my sugars with the extract. Can someone explain what difference either of these might make on the outcome?

Any of the above options will work to boost your ABV but the light malt extract will add more of a malty backbone for the beer. You could even add simple table sugar in replacement for the dextrose. Many people will either add dextrose or table sugar to dry out the beer a bit and allow the hops to shine through.

Also yeast. Is it worth experimenting with a different yeast, and what yeasts are best suited to my IPA.

What options do you have available at your shop? A good yeast to use that produces a clean flavor is Safale US-05. I've used this yeast many times with good results.

Finally, dry hopping. Might give it ago once I am close o the end of fermentation. What hops are good for an IPA? Can I just dumpy the hops in the primary, a few days before I rack and bottle?

Absolutely dry hop. This will take your standard IPA and make it much much better. Try out dry hopping with a single hop to start- something like cascade and add 1 or 2 oz near the end of fermentation right into the primary for 3-5 days.

Finally, finally. Ferment temps for an IPA? Same as a lager ok? I did my lager around 62 degrees. That be ok for an IPA? Can/should I crash my IPA too? I crashed my Amber and I am pretty happy the way it turned out

The answer to that is depends. The yeast will dictate the temp that you will ferment at and most ale yeasts are not appropriate for lager temps. A temp of around 66-72 is a good range to shoot for something like the S05. At the final day of your dry hop I would cold crash prior to kegging/bottling.

 

[Nubiwan]

Thanks HB Alt73. I ended up buying a US-04 yeast. Was told it is a UK variety and that all yeast will give a significant difference to flavours. Not sure what temp range it is good for, but I could search it easy enough I guess, if not already on the packet, which is not within reach at present. I assume there will be some instructions for starting the yearst. I will likely do this while I boil, to get it ready.

One of my LHBS suggested boiling my hops 45 minutes prior to adding my extract and fermentables, and perhaps even dry hopping in the primary as you suggested. My other LHBS simply suggested dry hopping. Any suggestions which might be better for an IPA? I ended up buying a centennial hops. 2 half ounce packs, that was suggestedfor a citrus flavour to an IPA.

I was planning to go 500g medium dry malt and 500 g dextrose to dry out the IPA. Is that enough fermentable? Should I reduce my water from 23 L to increase OG, and flavours?

 

[HB_ATL73]

US-04 is a fine choice too- that temp range will also be fine for that yeast- but check out the package it will have the temp range on there. For dry yeast you can hydrate the yeast- to do this take a cup of water and bring to a boil to sanitize, cool to 100 deg or lower and mix in the yeast, cover, and let it hydrate while you do the boil. I have had no issues just pitching dry yeast as well.

One of my LHBS suggested boiling my hops 45 minutes prior to adding my extract and fermentables, and perhaps even dry hopping in the primary as you suggested

Are you saying you will just boil the hops in water for 45 min prior to adding the extract kit?

Any suggestions which might be better for an IPA?

The answer for this is dry hop. No doubt. Adding hops in the boil will only result in bittering and far less hop flavor and (no) aroma from the hops. Dry hop the beer in the primary.

I was planning to go 500g medium dry malt and 500 g dextrose to dry out the IPA. Is that enough fermentable?

First, the medium dry malt is going to give an amber color and maltier flavor than just a light DME- which is fine just go with it and see how you like it. Secondly, I am not familiar with this prehopped kit- do the instructions give an estimated OG for the kit? if you are adding extra fermentables you can use an online calculator to get your OG. I wouldn't go too overboard- when I first started brewing I experimented with adding ABV to extract kits (say like a 6% IPA kit and trying to make it into a 9-10% beer) and this will likely result in a unbalanced and not so enjoyable beer.

 

[Nubiwan]

US-04 is a fine choice too- that temp range will also be fine for that yeast- but check out the package it will have the temp range on there. For dry yeast you can hydrate the yeast- to do this take a cup of water and bring to a boil to sanitize, cool to 100 deg or lower and mix in the yeast, cover, and let it hydrate while you do the boil. I have had no issues just pitching dry yeast as well.

Are you saying you will just boil the hops in water for 45 min prior to adding the extract kit?

( yes, the guy suggested I could boil hops for 30-45 mins, let it cool enough to mix in my Extract and Sugars. That sound odd to you? I thought I read of others doing similar on here)

The answer for this is dry hop. No doubt. Adding hops in the boil will only result in bittering and far less hop flavor and (no) aroma from the hops. Dry hop the beer in the primary.

(Is dry hopping adding to taste, flavour and aroma, or just aroma?)

First, the medium dry malt is going to give an amber color and maltier flavor than just a light DME- which is fine just go with it and see how you like it. Secondly, I am not familiar with this prehopped kit- do the instructions give an estimated OG for the kit? if you are adding extra fermentables you can use an online calculator to get your OG. I wouldn't go too overboard- when I first started brewing I experimented with adding ABV to extract kits (say like a 6% IPA kit and trying to make it into a 9-10% beer) and this will likely result in a unbalanced and not so enjoyable beer.

(yes, I like a malt thing happening with an IPA - its all experimental at this point anyway - I am not after a big ABV. 5-6 % is more than adequate. I just want to make sure I have enough fermentables for the OG)

Expand above for answers

Is 500Gg of DME and 500g Dextrose too much?

 

[HB_ATL73]

So from the calculations I got from this site https://www.brewersfriend.com/extract-ogfg/
From 1 kit which is 1.5kg + 1 kg of fermentables in a 23 L batch gives you an OG of 1.036 and with an estimated FG of 1.010 (typical for S04) will give you a 3.45 ABV beer... that's relatively low but with just dry hopping 1 oz of centennial should be an okay beer. It all depends what you want from the beer- if you doubled the Morgans IPA LME to 3 kg that would up your OG to 1.057 and ABV ~5.35. I'm not saying you need to up the ABV but if you do I would add more DME (or the IPA liquid extract)and not more than 500g dextrose bc you don't want too high of a percentage of total grist of sugar (some say no more than 10%)

 

[HB_ATL73]

I'm sorry I missed the other parts of your post- the kit you are using is pre hopped in the liquid malt extract- meaning that the bitterness you get from hops will be in the LME. When you say "yes, the guy suggested I could boil hops for 30-45 mins, let it cool enough to mix in my Extract and Sugars"- I have no experience with doing this type of procedure- but when boiling hops for 30-45 min you will get solely bitterness from the hops. You are better off using those hops to dry hop- which will give you hop flavor/aroma. There are plenty of resources online explaining the function of hops @ different times in the boil.

 

[Nubiwan]

So from the calculations I got from this site https://www.brewersfriend.com/extract-ogfg/
From 1 kit which is 1.5kg + 1 kg of fermentables in a 23 L batch gives you an OG of 1.036 and with an estimated FG of 1.010 (typical for S04) will give you a 3.45 ABV beer... that's relatively low but with just dry hopping 1 oz of centennial should be an okay beer. It all depends what you want from the beer- if you doubled the Morgans IPA LME to 3 kg that would up your OG to 1.057 and ABV ~5.35. I'm not saying you need to up the ABV but if you do I would add more DME (or the IPA liquid extract)and not more than 500g dextrose bc you don't want too high of a percentage of total grist of sugar (some say no more than 10%)

So I could up my DME to 1kg, leave dextrose at 500g, Extract 1.5 KG, and based on your chart at 23 Liters - with 3KG of fermentables, that gives me an ABV of 4.63. Am I reading that correct?

Conversely, I could drop my total volume to 20 liters (with 2.5 KG of sugars) and keep my OG higher that way, I guess.

Its not all about ABV for me, it is more about body, taste and flavour. I have long since run the race of drinking beer to get a buzz. Though, it is still nice to get away at times.

 

[RM-MN]

So I could up my DME to 1kg, leave dextrose at 500g, Extract 1.5 KG, and based on your chart at 23 Liters - with 3KG of fermentables, that gives me an ABV of 4.63. Am I reading that correct?

Conversely, I could drop my total volume to 20 liters (with 2.5 KG of sugars) and keep my OG higher that way, I guess.

Simple answer to the question is yes. The ratio of sugars to the water in wort tells you how much ABV you can expect (not entirely, there are unfermentable sugars in wort) so if you raise the amount of sugars or reduce the amount of water you get the same ABV but different quantities. Now for something else to worry about, beer is about balance, the balance between sweetness and the bitterness that offsets it. If you simply add extract to raise ABV without increasing the bitteness the beer will be sweeter than you may want. Simple sugars completely ferment out and give you the opposite. I don't know that that will be a problem with the quantities you have mentioned but just trying to raise the ABV without accounting for the difference will get you an unbalanced beer.

 

[Nubiwan]

Simple answer to the question is yes. The ratio of sugars to the water in wort tells you how much ABV you can expect (not entirely, there are unfermentable sugars in wort) so if you raise the amount of sugars or reduce the amount of water you get the same ABV but different quantities. Now for something else to worry about, beer is about balance, the balance between sweetness and the bitterness that offsets it. If you simply add extract to raise ABV without increasing the bitteness the beer will be sweeter than you may want. Simple sugars completely ferment out and give you the opposite. I don't know that that will be a problem with the quantities you have mentioned but just trying to raise the ABV without accounting for the difference will get you an unbalanced beer.

I can appreciate that, and have already indicated that ABV is not as important to me as taste and flavour (are they same thing?), so what can I use to guide how much fermentable quantities I should use in an extract? Trial and error?. Half and Half dextrose to DME? The kit calls for 1.35 of malt Extract or 1 K of dextrose. Should I just stick with those numbers and let me ABV be what it is?

 

[STMF]

I found this spreadsheet a while back. I can take no credit for it but it a nice one if you are doing extract and/or kit beers.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TYgaVUVexMFtBIw9mrcccsacrGu5RrI1

 

[Nubiwan]

I found this spreadsheet a while back. I can take no credit for it but it a nice one if you are doing extract and/or kit beers.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TYgaVUVexMFtBIw9mrcccsacrGu5RrI1

Looks sunstantial - is there any help for this spreadsheet? Are there two separate compartments to the main page?

 

[Nubiwan]

So, in the end I went 500g of DME and 500g of dextrose. This after reading a few post of the merits of using the latter to dry out the beer. I added cold water and stopped when I measured an OG of 1.044. If I get decent 'attenuation' from my s-04 yeast, which i did jumpstart (sure that's not the correct phrase) with some warm kettle water and dex, then my ABV should be around 4.5.

Now, I did put off my IPA with another red ale tonight. My pitch temps where 68 degrees, but my room temp down there is just 60. Is that ferment temp ok for a red ale and an IPA?

My last question is this. Some of the kit instructions claim I should get a starting OG of 1045 or higher. How is this possible (in a 23L batch) when they provide 1.5 kg of extract, and ask for 1 kg of dextrose? Is the answer simply, it cannot? Pretty sure I could only have acheived my 1044 OG using less water. Think i am around 21L.

 

[STMF]

I would not pitch at 68 and let it drop to 60. It might make the fermentation very sluggish.

If it is only extract and sugar, the calculated OG will be correct. If you get another value it might be becuase the wort was not 100% mixed or a hydrometer that needs calibration.

 

[RM-MN]

Now, I did put off my IPA with another red ale tonight. My pitch temps where 68 degrees, but my room temp down there is just 60. Is that ferment temp ok for a red ale and an IPA?

I'd say probably. The yeast activity is exothermic and will raise the temperature a little. I'd guess that at 60 degrees it will only be a couple degrees. After 3 or 4 days you will need to warm the beer to get the yeast to finish as it is likely to go dormant or very sluggish as the beer temp falls back to the 60 degrees.

Much of the above advice depends on the yeast too. It should be true for S-04 but I've fermented with Nottingham where the temperature was mid 50's and it worked fine. Some other yeast need it much warmer.

 

[Nubiwan]

For anyone following this thread. I am about a 8-9 days into my primaries and both are pretty much done fermenting. My SGs I selectivelyy closed off as I added the cooler water. They were 1044 for my IPA, and 1040 for my red ale, so I am not getting a big ABV from these kits, and I doubt that is expected. I could have limited my batches to 18 liters or so I guess to make them a little heavier on all fronts. Perhaps next time.

The other thing I never paid much attention to is yeast attenuation. MY S-04 attenuates around 75%, so the lowest my FG can go is likely in the 1010 range for either primary. That is essentially where they have been for the past few days. MY other two kits (Coopers Lager and Brew Canada), I was able to get up under 1010, soa larger ABV. Can I assume they package a higher attenuating yeast with their kits. Perhaps my SGs' were just lower too.

I am essentially making lower ABV beer here, which honestly tastes pretty good. Certainly on par if not better than domestic beer I normally buy. Anyway, I am not after rocket fuel, just decent to good tasting beer. I actually drink a beer a day of my recent red ale, it tastes so good. A month ago, a six pack would stay in my fridge for weeks without me touching it. Probably not a good sign!

 

[RM-MN]

The other thing I never paid much attention to is yeast attenuation. MY S-04 attenuates around 75%, so the lowest my FG can go is likely in the 1010 range for either primary.

The 75% attenuation is an estimate. I've had yeast with that estimated attenuation go much lower for FG. You can set conditions to encourage the yeast to attenuate a certain amount but when you pitch you lose that control and the yeast do their own thing.

 

[Apimyces]

Adding fresh hops to dry hop makes a big difference on these kits. Ideally, really, they'd add a small package of hops under the cap, but I've never seen any of them do that. I've not tasted this kit, but without the dryhop, an "Alexander Keith IPA clone" sounds quite plausible. Some extra hops in the secondary will make all the difference though.

 

[Nubiwan]

Adding fresh hops to dry hop makes a big difference on these kits. Ideally, really, they'd add a small package of hops under the cap, but I've never seen any of them do that. I've not tasted this kit, but without the dryhop, an "Alexander Keith IPA clone" sounds quite plausible. Some extra hops in the secondary will make all the difference though.

I added an ounce of cascade for 3-4 days and I think I cold crashed. Been a month since I did that one. Results were excellent,in terms of taste. The only downer was my carbonation ended a little high as there was a little drama with my siphoning to the bottling bucket. No bombs, but big heads on my pints. Tastes good as any IPA I have ever bought.