Wyeast Roeselare Sourness

[stickyfinger]

Hi,

I have tried using Wyeast Roeselare blend 3 times now, basically following Jamil's instructions to make a Flanders Red Ale. I cannot get it to sour. I get a wonderful malt character and some interesting overall flavor profile, but it does not get sour at all. What am I doing wrong? I've pitched it with neutral ale yeast and then Roeselare into secondary as well as just going straight through with Roeselare for primary and aging. Neither worked for souring. Is the White Labs blend better?

I'd like to try again soon and make a 10 or 15 gallon batch. One of the splits I'd like to just get a nice sour ale with the same malt profile. Has anyone tried just souring with lactobacillus and then fermenting it out with an ale yeast to get a quick pseudo flemish red to drink while the real version ages?!

 

[Joewalla88]

I had success with roselaire by tranferring off the yeast cake after the first month or so. Then after a couple months I repitched a jar of the yeast cake that I harvested from the primary. I don't know why I did this, or what I thought it would achieve, but it atarted souring a lot more after that. Don't ask me why, but it seemed to work.

 

[stickyfinger]

I had success with roselaire by tranferring off the yeast cake after the first month or so. Then after a couple months I repitched a jar of the yeast cake that I harvested from the primary. I don't know why I did this, or what I thought it would achieve, but it atarted souring a lot more after that. Don't ask me why, but it seemed to work.

maybe i should pitch another pack

 

[Joewalla88]

I've also heard that it get more sour after the first batch. Are you using a fresh pack each time?

 

[stickyfinger]

yeah, fresh each time. it's been over a yr each time. i'll save these dregs and try them again

 

[secondbase]

I've had a hell of a time getting first generation Roselare to sour with anything above 5ibu. Second generation is where it really shines, IME.

 

[stickyfinger]

So, is second generation in this case a repitch of the slurry left in primary after primary fermentation with Roeselare?

 

[Joewalla88]

I'm not exaclty sure what considered second generation with mixed cultures like this one. I also don't know if everyone transfers to secondary, but repitched what was left after tranferring to secondary, and it seemes to help sour my first batch. I also used a jar from that same yeast cake for my second sour batch, and it soured a lot faster. If I hadn't over oaked, it would have been awesome.

 

[stickyfinger]

I'm not exaclty sure what considered second generation with mixed cultures like this one. I also don't know if everyone transfers to secondary, but repitched what was left after tranferring to secondary, and it seemes to help sour my first batch. I also used a jar from that same yeast cake for my second sour batch, and it soured a lot faster. If I hadn't over oaked, it would have been awesome.

ok. that makes sense. i also racked off of the yeast cake the second time i tried to use it.

 

[isomerization]

I would definitely try kettle souring then pitching an appropriate Sacc strain. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't believe traditional Brett character is as important in true to style Flanders red ales (more skewed toward Lacto)? Either way, you will know in about a month if its headed in the right direction flavor wise. Add some oak for long(er) term conditioning too. You can always co pitch Brett and Sacc after kettle souring too if you want that flavor profile.

 

[jan_b19]

You could try infecting the beer with lactobacillus yourself. Like they do at the Rodenbach brewery.

 

[stickyfinger]

I would definitely try kettle souring then pitching an appropriate Sacc strain. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't believe traditional Brett character is as important in true to style Flanders red ales (more skewed toward Lacto)? Either way, you will know in about a month if its headed in the right direction flavor wise. Add some oak for long(er) term conditioning too. You can always co pitch Brett and Sacc after kettle souring too if you want that flavor profile.

I have been doing a lot of reading, and that is a recommendation at the sour beer blog. he uses a pre-souring method with lactobacillus and then adds yeast after that, all in phases. I was thinking of making a flanders red wort, souring with lacto and then pitching in Sacc, followed by a Brett strain that looks interesting, or just ferment it out with Brett and see how that goes. Could be a fun way to have some speedier sour beers with interesting (even if not the most complex in the world) flavor while I am waiting for the more traditional methods to produce results.

 

[isomerization]

I have been doing a lot of reading, and that is a recommendation at the sour beer blog. he uses a pre-souring method with lactobacillus and then adds yeast after that, all in phases. I was thinking of making a flanders red wort, souring with lacto and then pitching in Sacc, followed by a Brett strain that looks interesting, or just ferment it out with Brett and see how that goes. Could be a fun way to have some speedier sour beers with interesting (even if not the most complex in the world) flavor while I am waiting for the more traditional methods to produce results.

If you are talking about Dr. Lambic's blog, than that is an awesome resource for sour beer homebrewing knowledge. My kettle sour batches are only at an n=1, but I couldn't be happier (Morrey's Magarita Gose recipe). I would think pitching Brett (at any point post kettle sour) would yield great complexity over time. Would be really cool to split the batch up and compare just Sacc v. Brett/Sacc.

 

[isomerization]

Say what you will about Northern Brewer's ownership, but they make excellent kits (imo). They have a new kit (I think) that is a take on Flemish red ale (http://www.northernbrewer.com/heiress-de-bourgogne-all-grain-recipe) that has you kettle sour (with the excellent OYL-605) before pitching a Belgian strain in primary.

 

[stickyfinger]

Say what you will about Northern Brewer's ownership, but they make excellent kits (imo). They have a new kit (I think) that is a take on Flemish red ale (http://www.northernbrewer.com/heiress-de-bourgogne-all-grain-recipe) that has you kettle sour (with the excellent OYL-605) before pitching a Belgian strain in primary.

Huh, funny. I just decided on OYL-605 and I have a batch going now, my first attempt at pre-souring. It worked very well. I pitched a 1L starter of OYL-605 into a boiled wort with no hops added and it was down to pH 3.34 after 43 hours at 95F. You can supposedly just let it drop in temp after pitching though, and it will still sour well. I added in a healthy pitch of OYL-057 Hothead at that point, and it has been fermenting away at 93F for a day. Maybe I'll keg half for my wife to enjoy and then add some Brett to the rest.

I agree that it would be fun to presour a large batch of wort and then pitch different things into it. My main worry was finding strains that would ferment well in the low pH environment without off-flavors and also I was a little concerned that the Brett might not work well if pitched directly into super sour wort as opposed to growing along with the souring bugs (eg pedio)

On to choosing some Brett to play with.

 

[Joewalla88]

If you still have a pack of roselare you could pre sour and then pitch that too.

 

[stickyfinger]

If you still have a pack of roselare you could pre sour and then pitch that too.

yeah, I do have a pack of Roeselare in my fridge. Maybe I'll pitch that into half of the wort once the Hothead chews through it.

 

[brewmeister13]

For future batches, if you are willing to have yeast shipped to you and are willing to wait for it to be available, bootleg biology's sour solera blend is awesome. I'm waiting for mine to mature and drop a few more gravity points, but it was down to 3.22 after just 3 months. I co-pitched it with WLP550 to help it with primary fermentation.

 

[stickyfinger]

This is perhaps a tangent, but I am wondering if anyone can give me a list of yeasts they have used in a pre-soured wort and obtained good attenuation? I tried using lactobacillus souring in some wort in my carboy and got it down to pH 3.34. I then just kept the wort at 95F and pitched in some Omega Yeast Labs Hothead. I only got it to attenuate down to 1.026 from 1.052. It tasted ok, so I kegged it up, and it is pretty awesome, but I am guessing it has a lot more sweetness than it should. The pretty intense sourness must be masking the sweetness I think. Anyway, I'd like to try using a yeast that has been confirmed to ferment in low pH conditions. I have Brett on my list, but I was hoping to maybe try using WY3711 - French Saison. has anyone tried that in low pH conditions?