Wyeast 3724 starting hot, and open fermentation question

[_Keven]

Hello, this is the 2nd time I’ve used this yeast and the first time I had the infamous stall and pitched 3711 to finish it off. This time around I’m aiming to finish completely with 3724
Note: I used 7.5 lbs pilsen DME, and 1.25 lbs dextrose)
OG: 1.072
Pitched 2 packs (made a starter 24 hours before)

I read this forum post:
https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/wyeast-3724-fermentation-temperatures/19140/3

They talk about pitching in the low 80s being a tried and true way of getting a faster more attenuated beer so I did exactly that.
I pitched in the mid 60s and after about 8 hours cranked the temp up to 80 which in hindsight might’ve been a bit abrupt. The next day it was churning and bubbling every few seconds. The second day it was bubbling every 30 seconds or so, so I bumped the temp up to 82. Today it bubbles maybe every minute or so. I’m only on day three but I’m concerned this slow down is inevitably going to lead to the stall.

My question is should I keep ramping up temps a few degrees a day until I get to 90? Also should I take out my airlock and place some foil over it, so the yeast isn’t stressed from all the pressure? I know this strain can stall when it’s pressured too much. Will open fermenting this actually help at this point?

 

[VikeMan]

My advice is to leave it alone and be patient. I have never had a 3724 beer not finish. Even if it seems "stalled" (i.e. moving so slowly that a hydrometer reading is basically indistinguishable 2 days in a row), it will finish.

The airlock thing is IMO complete nonsense. Go ahead and compute the pressure added by the liquid in the airlock. You'll find that it's smaller than normal variation in ambient air pressure. How is it that commercial breweries are able to brew with this strain, in large fermenters adding pressures order of magnitude higher than an airlock? Hell, I've even naturally carbonated in a keg to 4 volumes, which produces about 28 PSIG at the end, with no problems at all.

 

[_Keven]

My advice is to leave it alone and be patient. I have never had a 3724 beer not finish. Even if it seems "stalled" (i.e. moving so slowly that a hydrometer reading is basically indistinguishable 2 days in a row), it will finish.

The airlock thing is IMO complete nonsense. Go ahead and compute the pressure added by the liquid in the airlock. You'll find that it's smaller than normal variation in ambient air pressure. How is it that commercial breweries are able to brew with this strain, in large fermenters adding pressures order of magnitude higher than an airlock? Hell, I've even naturally carbonated in a keg to 4 volumes, which produces about 28 PSIG at the end, with no problems at all.

Hello,

Little update, after 10 days the gravity is at 1.040. I’ve kept it at 90-92 the past 5-6 days at this point and just left it alone. My guess is I didn’t oxygenate the wort properly on brew day and the yeast is kind of suffocating at this point.

Would it be a bad idea to re-oxygenate the wort at this point? I’ve heard re-oxygenating can be bad mid brew on stalled fermentations as it just oxygenates your beer, but with such a high gravity still in the fermenter won’t the production of co2 push a lot of this oxygen out so it wouldn’t be noticeable in the final product? Any tips would be appreciated. Either way it looks like this brew still has at least another month to go.

 

[VikeMan]

My advice is to leave it alone and be patient.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your yeast are beyond the phase where they need oxygen. Adding more would mostly cause oxidation (and premature staling) of the beer, which is not desirable. And no, oxygen dissolved in the beer is not "pushed out" by CO2. Each gas will seek its own equilibrium independently. A few weeks is not uncommon for a 3724 fermentation. If you want it to go faster, go ahead and "finish it" with 3711 or just use 3711 from the start. Either way, it won't be the same beer as with a 100% 3724 fermentation.

 

[_Keven]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your yeast are beyond the phase where they need oxygen. Adding more would mostly cause oxidation (and premature staling) of the beer, which is not desirable. And no, oxygen dissolved in the beer is not "pushed out" by CO2. Each gas will seek its own equilibrium independently. A few weeks is not uncommon for a 3724 fermentation. If you want it to go faster, go ahead and "finish it" with 3711 or just use 3711 from the start. Either way, it won't be the same beer as with a 100% 3724 fermentation.

Ah ok, many people were saying to stir up the fermenter to get the yeast back in suspension. I guess I’ll try doing that and not reintroduce new oxygen. Last time I brewed this beer I did pitch some 3711 and it was ok, it finished very low but this time around I guess I’ll just wait it out. I want the full 3724 flavor profile this time around.

 

[_Keven]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your yeast are beyond the phase where they need oxygen. Adding more would mostly cause oxidation (and premature staling) of the beer, which is not desirable. And no, oxygen dissolved in the beer is not "pushed out" by CO2. Each gas will seek its own equilibrium independently. A few weeks is not uncommon for a 3724 fermentation. If you want it to go faster, go ahead and "finish it" with 3711 or just use 3711 from the start. Either way, it won't be the same beer as with a 100% 3724 fermentation.

Just a little update for ya,

I think I found the key to this strain of yeast. I noticed that after a few days there was very little air lock activity, which I know is typical and doesn't necessarily mean the fermentation is stalled. So I tried gently 'shaking' the fermenter back and forth a little bit to get the yeast back into suspension as others have said that this worked for them. I didn't think it would amount to anything but I tried it out. Low and behold the next morning the airlock was bubbling a ton. Probably a bubble every 15-30 seconds. After a few days it would slow down again, so I stirred it again and the same thing happened. I've repeated this process for the past 3 weeks and today I took a gravity reading. Its sitting at 1.017 right now but its definitely not done yet. Its taking its time but I'm glad to see that we're almost there.

 

[Brockness Monster]

I think you might need to turn your temp control off completely with this strain. Anything but the gentlest of cooling will crash it out.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Heat and patience are all this yeast needs. If you don't like waiting 3726 has very similar flavour profile, but no stall. Fast and furious.

 

[_Keven]

I think you might need to turn your temp control off completely with this strain. Anything but the gentlest of cooling will crash it out.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your yeast are beyond the phase where they need oxygen. Adding more would mostly cause oxidation (and premature staling) of the beer, which is not desirable. And no, oxygen dissolved in the beer is not "pushed out" by CO2. Each gas will seek its own equilibrium independently. A few weeks is not uncommon for a 3724 fermentation. If you want it to go faster, go ahead and "finish it" with 3711 or just use 3711 from the start. Either way, it won't be the same beer as with a 100% 3724 fermentation.

Alright after 9 weeks we reached a FG of 1.004. Tasting it out of the gravity reader and it tastes really good. I did continually gently shake the fermenter every 3-5 days or so but I think if I just waited and left it alone it would’ve finished up anyways. Temps were kept at 91 the entire time. I think it got a little too much exposure to oxygen unfortunately. I couldn’t taste it yet but the color does seem to be slightly darker from brew day or maybe I’m just seeing things idk. I carbed it to 3.0 volumes of CO2, my guess is it’ll take 4 weeks before it’s ready.

Note: the OG in the image is before diluting with the yeast starter. OG was 1.072-1.073

 

[Brockness Monster]

Wow, that dried out a lot. I don't think the color is that different especially when the pre-ferment is shown with a white background on the bottom of the picture, and the post-ferment is mostly a dark background.

I assume you are bottling judging by the 4 week wait. One little trick I like to use is taking a small plastic soda bottle, put a little of the bottling liquid (Beer and Sugar solution) in it, squeeze all of the air out, and cap it. As the yeast eats up the sugar, the bottle will expand and fill with CO2. I like to do this at the beginning of bottling and at the end to see if the sugar was mixed into the beer properly (it always was). This is also handy for a little taste later on if you are curious how the beer is turning out. I used to have some tiny 4 oz. soda bottles from a Mexican soda that I would use for this.

 

[_Keven]

Wow, that dried out a lot. I don't think the color is that different especially when the pre-ferment is shown with a white background on the bottom of the picture, and the post-ferment is mostly a dark background.

I assume you are bottling judging by the 4 week wait. One little trick I like to use is taking a small plastic soda bottle, put a little of the bottling liquid (Beer and Sugar solution) in it, squeeze all of the air out, and cap it. As the yeast eats up the sugar, the bottle will expand and fill with CO2. I like to do this at the beginning of bottling and at the end to see if the sugar was mixed into the beer properly (it always was). This is also handy for a little taste later on if you are curious how the beer is turning out. I used to have some tiny 4 oz. soda bottles from a Mexican soda that I would use for this.

Well that’s reassuring, and yeah we just bottled it. But I’m definitely gonna give that plastic bottle trick a try, maybe it’ll prevent me from opening bottles up too early lol

 

[monkeymath]

3724 is the best strain to teach the RDWHAHB mantra.

I brewed a Saison using 3724 about a month ago. Set everything up to bottle two weeks later, and that mischievous little thing had only brought the gravity down to 8° Plato.
You don't decide when it's done - the yeast does.

But the resulting beer is well worth the wait. Heck, even that sweet sample of young beer was crazy flavourful.
3726 also makes a great beer, but it's too peppery for my taste, really prickly on the tongue.

 

[_Keven]

Hey guys, so its been about a month since bottling day, and the beer tastes ok, but its far too sweet atm. It seems like the yeast went dormant during the bottle conditioning phase likely because I'm just storing the bottles at room temp. There seems to be an excess amount of bottling sugars still in the beer. It tastes about the same from 2 weeks ago showing no signs of improvement. Do you guys think storing these bottles in my garage where the temp is regularly 80+ F would start up the yeast again? The temp does fluctuate at night probably down into the 60s-70s which I know is an absolute no no for this yeast during primary fermentation. For next time I'm definitely going to use a bottling yeast but is there anything I can do for this current batch?

 

[Brockness Monster]

Grab a packet of bottling yeast and use a spoon to sprinkle like 5 little grains of yeast into each bottle and recap. The temperature swings in your garage are too extreme IMO.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

sprinkle like 5 little grains of yeast into each bottle and recap

Given enough time, 5 little grains might work (see the topic I mentioned below). 1/32 tsp or 1/64 tsp is a more appropriate pitch rate (based on supplier product information).

is there anything I can do for this current batch?

Consider this approach:

eta: and pay attention to recommended temperature ranges for the strain you use. Also, avoid beer yeast as fresh beer yeast could ferment some of the existing complex sugars in the wort leading to gushers, ...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/beer-not-carbonating-in-the-bottle.733500/#post-10407417

 

[_Keven]

Given enough time, 5 little grains might work (see the topic I mentioned below). 1/32 tsp or 1/64 tsp is a more appropriate pitch rate (based on supplier product information).


Consider this approach:

eta: and pay attention to recommended temperature ranges for the strain you use. Also, avoid beer yeast as fresh beer yeast could ferment some of the existing complex sugars in the wort leading to gushers, ...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/beer-not-carbonating-in-the-bottle.733500/#post-10407417

View attachment 881525

I'm considering trying this, my only concern is that the beer is definitely carbed a decent amount, its just clearly too sweet given my final gravity was so low. If I had to guess I'd say ~50-75% of the sugar is fermented. Normally I wouldn't worry about it being a bit sweet but for a Saison it really takes away from the yeasty flavors and kind of defeats the purpose of this brew. What I'm worried about is if I open the bottle, and re-pitch some yeast and cap it, wouldn't most of the carbonation that's currently in the bottle now be lost?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm considering trying this, my only concern is

You could try it on a single bottle (and, with another single bottle, try tipping the bottle in an attempt to put the existing yeast back in suspension). Wait two weeks than sample the bottle(s). This could help confirm the idea if the extra sweetness is from 'left over' sugar added at bottle conditioning time.

 

[VikeMan]

What I'm worried about is if I open the bottle, and re-pitch some yeast and cap it, wouldn't most of the carbonation that's currently in the bottle now be lost?

Very little will be lost. Some of the CO2 in the headspace will be lost immediately. (The "phhht" when you open the bottle.) The next thing would be CO2 in the beer migrating to the headspace as it seeks equilibrium, and then on to the air outside of the bottle. But it will take a while before you lose a noticeable amount. Many people fill bottles from kegs using beer guns (which don't maintain pressure), often for competitions, without worrying at all. In your scenario, you'd lose less than they do, assuming you don't work ridiculously slowly.

 

[Brockness Monster]

If you already have carbonation the yeast should be doing some work, they just might be tired. I assumed you were getting no carbonation. Patience might be the key here.

 

[_Keven]

If you already have carbonation the yeast should be doing some work, they just might be tired. I assumed you were getting no carbonation. Patience might be the key here.

Well the bottles haven’t changed in the last 3 weeks from testing a previous bottle. I think given the yeast strain I used it really did go fully dormant. It does very poorly fermenting at anything below 90 F.

 

[_Keven]

If you already have carbonation the yeast should be doing some work, they just might be tired. I assumed you were getting no carbonation. Patience might be the key here.

That’s reassuring, gonna try repitching this weekend

 

[VikeMan]

It does very poorly fermenting at anything below 90 F.

I have made many beers with 3724, at temperatures not only below 90F, but also below 80F. It was generally pretty slow, as expected, but I would not say it ever performed "poorly" for me. It always reached the FG range I was expecting. And I've carbonated naturally in a keg at about 70F. No issues. No residual simple sugars, at least nothing detectable. I realize (or at least think) you're somewhat frustrated with this batch, but the general statement about the strain performing very poorly below 90F isn't supported. I only say this because people actually read forum posts, and some newbie might otherwise think they have to ferment 3724 at 90+ degrees.

 

[_Keven]

I have made many beers with 3724, at temperatures not only below 90F, but also below 80F. It was generally pretty slow, as expected, but I would not say it ever performed "poorly" for me. It always reached the FG range I was expecting. And I've carbonated naturally in a keg at about 70F. No issues. No residual simple sugars, at least nothing detectable. I realize (or at least think) you're somewhat frustrated with this batch, but the general statement about the strain performing very poorly below 90F isn't supported. I only say this because people actually read forum posts, and some newbie might otherwise think they have to ferment 3724 at 90+ degrees.

Wow I didn’t know this strain could finish below 80, good to know. I guess I’m just a little impatient lol. Wyeast’s site does say 90+ is recommended for the beer to finish, I just figured the yeast bottle conditioning went dormant at room temperature. If it does finish at room temp I’d predict for my batch it would take at least a few months from now given how it’s been the past month in the bottle with seemingly no change in the past few weeks. I think I’m still going to add some cbc-1 to expedite the process a bit

 

[VikeMan]

Wyeast’s site does say 90+ is recommended for the beer to finish,

I've seen that before. IIRC, what they actually say is that 90+ can speed up attenuation, which is true. Of course, that's true with any strain.

 

[_Keven]

Here's a little update for you guys, I left the bottles in a back room that gets a lot of sun (don't worry, the bottles were stored in a box and weren't exposed to any sunlight) and doesn't receive any AC. Its pretty hot here in Chicago so that room gets well over 90 during the day and maybe even over 100 sometimes, and it retains a lot of heat even into the night. My plan was to open the bottles and add some CBC-1 into each as discussed above, so I figured I'd just leave the bottles in the back room until this weekend when I had time to pitch the yeast.

Well today I noticed a lot of the bottle caps were bulging which means the original yeast was definitely active now as that was not the case last week (and we even had a bottle bomb)... Sure enough I opened a few bottles and they all tasted fully attenuated and were fully carbed! This yeast never ceases to surprise me. So now I'm storing them back at room temp and hoping no more bottles blow up. We did not end up adding any cbc-1 for obvious reasons. Next time I think we'll shoot with a little less priming sugar lol.