Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[unionrdr]

I used WY3711 in my saison & got a little of the usual barnyard flavor on the back. A couple months after bottling, I finally got some of the peppery ester the yeast is said to produce on the back. But not much. Interesting that saisons like a bit of aging?...

 

[Gus_13]

I used WY3711 in my saison & got a little of the usual barnyard flavor on the back. A couple months after bottling, I finally got some of the peppery ester the yeast is said to produce on the back. But not much. Interesting that saisons like a bit of aging?...

I prefer all of my Saisons aged a bit. Historically they were all aged. Some for a very long time in oak. They would brew a fresh batch and blend a year old batch in to get some tartness to show.

Most all of mine have improved with age. I think it has something to do with the yeast being under pressure.

 

[unionrdr]

I think your right. I may have to raise initial fermentation temp. Then age them a few months to get the flavor I expected from the 3711.

 

[MeanDeuce]

Tried my rye saison last night that I brewed back in mid-August with 3711. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of liking it now that its a little older. The spicy peppery notes have taken over and any of the tart fruity notes are gone. Could be the rye, could be just a phase, could be my pallet, was sick last week.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, mine still had a little of the barnyard funk on the back. But part of it was replaced by the peppery note from the yeast after a couple months.

 

[Texconsinite]

Trying to do an Lemon-Lime Farmhouse IPA with 3711, (borrowing liberally from SD -SLIMs Lemon Lime Hefeweizen recipe)
3711 is my house strain, but this is only my second "IPA"

would welcome feedback on rough draft of proposed recipe:

Belgian Green Monster Ale

Wyeast 3711 (second gen harvested from 9/15 Dark Saison)

OG-1.055
FG-1.000

Steep
.5lb Rye @ 165 for 30 min

6lbs Light LME
.5 oz Motueka @ 60
1 oz Sorachi Ace @ 20
.5 oz Motueka @ 20
.5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 5
.5 oz Sorachi Ace in Secondary
Whirlfloc @ 15min
Fresh Zest from 4 small limes @ 5min

After a few days of Primary fermentation, add 1.75L Simply Limeaide

Primary: 4 weeks @ 76
Secondary: 2 wks @ 76

 

[sweetcell]

will be interesting to see if you get down to 1.000. LME typically contains some crystal, and mashing rye at 165 will yield some long-chain sugars... if i had to bet, i'd say it'll end a little high than that but still in the single digits.

your hoping schedule is a tad wasteful, in my very personal opinion (feel free to ignore). using motueka for bittering isn't going to give you much. i prefer to save fancy hops like that for later in the boil and use something cheaper for bittering. speaking of late boil additions, i'd move all of yours closer to the end. instead of 20, 20 & 5; i would do something like 10, 5 & 0. 20 minutes in the boil means that you'll start losing some of the aromatics, and you'll get a decent bittering contribution.

love the idea of using Simply Limeade. please let us know how it turns out!

 

[Texconsinite]

Sweetcell, Im very interested in your comments on my hop schedule. I am used to Nut Browns and Hefeweizens with minimal hop additions, so i appreciate the feedback. Backloading the aroma and flavor hops closer to the end of the boil makes sense.

I guess here's what I'm trying to do, perhaps you can offer advice on how to get there:

I want the Lemon-Lime bomb of the Sorachi Ace to compliment the Limeaide and Lime zest, and beyond that I just want something citrusy/fruity for bittering that will go with Sorachi (not Cascade or other grapefruit hops). What cheap hop would you suggest for bittering and how much?

 

[sweetcell]

I just want something citrusy/fruity for bittering that will go with Sorachi (not Cascade or other grapefruit hops). What cheap hop would you suggest for bittering and how much?

for late hopped beers such as your recipe, i prefer bittering hops that don't contribute much in the way of flavor/aroma. Magnum and Warrior are my go-to's. they are low in cohumulone (which can impart harshness to the bittering), high in alpha (so you don't need a lot) and they're cheap.

in terms of how much, it will depend how many (calculated) IBUs the recipe calls for, and how many you'll be getting from your late additions. are you familiar with recipe software, such as BeerSmith or BrewToad? the former is online and free. enter your ingredients, your hopping schedule, etc, and it will provide an estimate of the IBUs. they have tools to let you know if you're within the parameters of a style. don't take anything the software says as bible, it's just guidance.

as for how much bittering hops to use, i can't tell you that offhand. if you are tweaking an existing recipe, what i would do is first enter the original recipe, exactly as written, and see how many IBUs that gets you. then, make tweaks - bitter with magnum/warrior/whatever, move the 20 minutes to 10, etc. and see what the impact is. too bitter? cut down on the 60 minute hops.

 

[drives_a_bike]

Trying to do an Lemon-Lime Farmhouse IPA with 3711, (borrowing liberally from SD -SLIMs Lemon Lime Hefeweizen recipe)
3711 is my house strain, but this is only my second "IPA"

would welcome feedback on rough draft of proposed recipe:

Belgian Green Monster Ale

Wyeast 3711 (second gen harvested from 9/15 Dark Saison)

OG-1.055
FG-1.000

Steep
.5lb Rye @ 165 for 30 min

6lbs Light LME
.5 oz Motueka @ 60
1 oz Sorachi Ace @ 20
.5 oz Motueka @ 20
.5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 5
.5 oz Sorachi Ace in Secondary
Whirlfloc @ 15min
Fresh Zest from 4 small limes @ 5min

After a few days of Primary fermentation, add 1.75L Simply Limeaide

Primary: 4 weeks @ 76
Secondary: 2 wks @ 76

I made a ginger saison this summer using lemon zest and all NZ Motueka and it turned out amazingly! Very fruity and citrus...I think I went light on the ginger as it was barely detectable, but 3711 and Motueka work very well together.
I think the lime zest will bring out the lemon/lime flavor that Motueka produces.
I got mine from 1.060 down to 1.000 for a whopping 7.9%. Usually not a big deal, but it was supposed to be on tap for my buddy's wedding...needless to say I had to make a warning sign. Haha

 

[Texconsinite]

Good to know about the Motueka blending well with lemon, I'll remember that for my next batch.

I opted for 1oz of Magnum for generic bittering, and 1 oz of Sorachi Ace split btw 10 & 0 min for aroma/flavor. Plus the Lime peel and Real Limeaide. Will be brewing in 2 wks, will post how it turns out.

IVe used harvested This will be my first batch using harvested beer yeast (3711 from my Farmers Tan Dark Saison) If I make a 1/2 gallon starter, how many days of lead time do i give it before pitching?

 

[Texconsinite]

I bought the supplies already for brew day on the 7th.
Going with 1 oz Magnum for Bittering, and 1 oz Sorachi Ace late addition for aroma and flavor.
Trying to make this sessionable, but knowing 3711, itll end up higher ABV than expected (said that about my last Saison too... result: 6.7%)

BrewToad calced it at 53 IBUs, so it wont be the Hoppiest IPA, but thats ok with me as im not a hop head. That plus the lime peel and limeaide should give it plenty of bite.

Drives a bike- The Motueka sounds interesting, that and Mosaic are on my list of hops to try in a future Saison. I made a lemon ginger wheat that I really enjoyed, that ginger kick with the peppery 3711 esters does sound like a good combo. Next batch perhaps? Id like to make a spiced holiday saison in time for christmas, but very fuzzy on what I want that to be like.

 

[sweetcell]

I bought the supplies already for brew day on the 7th.
Going with 1 oz Magnum for Bittering, and 1 oz Sorachi Ace late addition for aroma and flavor.
Trying to make this sessionable, but knowing 3711, itll end up higher ABV than expected (said that about my last Saison too... result: 6.7%)

BrewToad calced it at 53 IBUs, so it wont be the Hoppiest IPA, but thats ok with me as im not a hop head. That plus the lime peel and limeaide should give it plenty of bite.

i would be concerned that 53 IBUs on a dry 3711 beer is going to be... bracing. as long as you like strong bitterness, go for it. there is going to be little to no residual sugar left, so you'll get the full brunt of that bittering. "true" IPAs aren't as dry as 3711 brews so they have a little sweetness to balance the bitterness.

regarding "53 IBUs, so it wont be the Hoppiest IPA" - don't confuse bitterness with hoppiness (i.e. hop flavor and aroma). you can make a very hoppy beer with no hop taste/aroma, and you can make a beer with little bitterness but a ton of hop characteristic. in your recipe, you'll be getting your hop character - hoppiness - from the late addition of Sorachi Ace. the magnum is a relatively low-flavor hop, and after 60 minutes of boiling there will be hardly any flavor or aroma left.

 

[Texconsinite]

i would be concerned that 53 IBUs on a dry 3711 beer is going to be... bracing. as long as you like strong bitterness, go for it. there is going to be little to no residual sugar left, so you'll get the full brunt of that bittering. "true" IPAs aren't as dry as 3711 brews so they have a little sweetness to balance the bitterness.

regarding "53 IBUs, so it wont be the Hoppiest IPA" - don't confuse bitterness with hoppiness (i.e. hop flavor and aroma). you can make a very hoppy beer with no hop taste/aroma, and you can make a beer with little bitterness but a ton of hop characteristic. in your recipe, you'll be getting your hop character - hoppiness - from the late addition of Sorachi Ace. the magnum is a relatively low-flavor hop, and after 60 minutes of boiling there will be hardly any flavor or aroma left.

Interesting. Im after the Sorachi Ace's lemony aroma and taste, so im adding that as a late addition as you suggested. I chose the Magnum because of the low-flavor, since it is a 60min addition just to give it some bitterness. If im understanding you correctly, the bitterness from 1 oz of Magnum @60 will be overwhelming in such a dry beer?

Thats good to know, id like some bitterness, but im expecting tartness from the limes already, and would prefer this be drinkable, so if it sounds like too much, i can just bump the bittering hops down to .5oz and go from there. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[stat]

I just brewed this recipe.

1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 8.0 %
11 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 88.0 %
1.00 ml Hop extract - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 36.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Sorachi Ace [10.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 6.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Sorachi Ace [10.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 7.5 IBUs
2.00 oz Sorachi Ace [10.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 7 28.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Sorachi Ace [10.40 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs

And then dry hopped with 2oz sorachi ace and 1oz kohatu(going for the lime flavor).

Fermented at 62 for a week then kegged. It was lemony at first but once it carbed up it tastes very strongly of black pepper. This is at around 2 weeks in the keg.

One time i did a saison with actual black pepper in the boil and this one tastes more like pepper than that.

 

[MeanDeuce]

Tried my rye saison last night that I brewed back in mid-August with 3711. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of liking it now that its a little older. The spicy peppery notes have taken over and any of the tart fruity notes are gone. Could be the rye, could be just a phase, could be my pallet, was sick last week.

Revisited this beer again yesterday and its coming around again. The spicy notes are fading and its nice and tart. Really weird, but I like it a lot right now. May just need a few months for the yeast to clean everything up.

 

[serum]

Revisited this beer again yesterday and its coming around again. The spicy notes are fading and its nice and tart. Really weird, but I like it a lot right now. May just need a few months for the yeast to clean everything up.

I definitely find that 3711 beers dry out over time. They're always drinkable within a few weeks of bottling but quite fruity but after 2-3 months they're bone dry. I find I prefer them somewhere in the middle.

This seems to be the opposite of a lot of yeasts I've used. Most of the time I find beers are a bit watery after a few weeks but much more malty after a month or so.

 

[Texconsinite]

So, I brewed my Lime and sorachi experiment, and it did not turn out how I expected. I ended up dailing the Magnum down to .7oz for bittering, with the full 1oz of Sorachi at end.
It fermented from 1.044 OG (adjusted to 1.051 for Simply Limeaide addition) down to 1.002. It pours crystal clear and golden, with maybe just the slightest green tinge, and a nice white head. Well carbed but not overly so.

It definitely has a nice Lime aroma that you smell the moment you crack the bottle. The flavor has only subtle lime notes, but balanced with a little bite on the back end, not bitter at all or strong hoppy flavor. The spiciness of the Rye blends very well with the silkiness and Belgian flavor of the 3711, and the simple malt bill tastes good and doesn't get in the way. The other person who tried it said it kinda reminded him of Bud Light Lime. I would say it certainly has more flavor than that, but it IS veery drinkable, and Im shocked how not-bitter it is.

I feel like I succeeded in making a light drinkable Belgian rye ale, but failed to make an IPA as far as hoppiness or bitterness goes. I really like the neutral soft bitterness of the Magnum. I plan to rebrew this with more hops next time, perhaps as follows:
2 oz Magnum @ 60min
.5 oz Motueka @ 10min
.5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 10min
.5 Motueka @ 0min
.5 Sorachi Ace @ 0min

Dry hop in Secondary with 1 oz Sorachi Ace

Perhaps replace the simply Limeaide with just sugar so the hops will come through more?

 

[Texconsinite]

Trying to further explore The rye IPA potential of 3711 with two gallon batches using different hops (Mosaic and Citra). Would like some feedback on my recipes

1 lb Rye Steeped at 165 for 30 min

Split into two kettles
Each one (2 Gallon Batch)

2.5 lbs Light LME
1 oz Magnum @ 60min
.5 oz Mosaic @ 15min
.5 oz Mosaic @ 0min
1oz Mosaic Dry Hopped in Secondary

Second batch same but with Citra instead at 15/0/dryhop.

I am planning to brew on Superbowl Sunday, would appreciate feedback on the Recipe. I undershot on the bitterness on previous IPA attempts, hope to get it right this time. Last time was 53 IBUS, going for 70 this time.

 

[sweetcell]

1 lb Rye Steeped at 165 for 30 min

rya needs to be mashed, not steeped.

luckily the difference is pretty minor: hold a little cooler (say 150*F) for 60 mins. mash in 1.5, or even 2, quarts of water, separate the grain from the liquor, and do a batch sparge (rinse) with ~2 quarts of 170*F water. rye has enough diastatic power to convert itself so you don't need to add anything else - but if you're going to mash anyways, why not throw in some 2-row? also, rye can get pretty sticky. if you're doing brew-in-a-bag you should be fine, but otherwise use some rice hulls. even for BIAB, some rice hulls in a 100% rye mash isn't a bad idea.

 

[Texconsinite]

Thanks for the mashing advice, sweetcell. Heres my tentative plan.

Mash (in grain bag)
2lbs Rye
1lb 2-Row
w 2 Qts @ 150 for 60 min
Batch Sparge w 2 Qts @ 170

Split into two (2 gallon) batches
Each one gets

1.5 Lbs Pale LME
.5 oz Magnum (13AA) @ 60min
.5oz Mosaic/Citra (15/11AA) @ 10min
.5 oz Mosaic/Citra @ 0 min
1 oz Mosaic/Citra Dry-hopped in Secondary

Software calls it: 4SRM, 85/79 IBUs, OG 1.047, ABV est 5.6%. It also shows it as Very bitter, and outside the bitterness guidelines for American IPAs, and lighter in color as well.

Ive always undershot the amount of hops in the past when Ive tried to make an IPA, but does this many IBUs w no crystal malt go too far, or do I just need to RDWHAHB and not complicate the grain bill?

 

[sweetcell]

you're going to need more than 2 quarts to mash with. 1.33-1.5 qts/lb is standard, since you've got 3 pounds of grain you'll want 4-5.5 quarts. sparge with an equal amount, or more.

i would take down those IBUs to something in the 50s. 3711 is going to dry this sucker out, so you will have very little to no residual sweetness left.

 

[Kiichi]

Thought I´d chime in with my current saison project. I am doing a quick turnaround Sorachi Ace single hop session saison at 3.5% with green tea and lemon peel & juice.

After a 7 day primary it is around 80% done. Kept it at 64 for 4 days and then let it rise to 70. Both airlock activity and tasting showed that there are still sugars in there that will be fermented. Fermentation has been nicely rapid for a saison, and through the low temperature pretty equal for the 6 days until the krausen completly fell.

Tasting notes after 7 days say lemon in all dimensions, which is no surprise since the yeast, hops, and lemon itself all deliver some parts. This includes a bit of tartness. That all then seems to be balanced rather nicely by a bit of malt (by amount: barley, wheat, biscuit, carapils, cara 60) and the green tea.

The yeast delivers lemony esters and some typical saison spices, which here play in the background and give dimension. Seems very clean. Due to the compostion of the brew I can´t say much about how the low temp affected the spice / fruit ratio from the yeast though. I can already say that it pair amazingly with citrus fruits though, as does Sorachi Ace.

I think I have a real winner on my hands here. I´ll keep you updated, especially in terms of the yeast character.

 

[tgmartin000]

Question - since this yeast attenuates like a BAWSE, has anyone tried mashing high, like 156 or so? Just curious.

 

[drives_a_bike]

Pretty excited for this years saison, to be kegged and ready by the end of March. Just in time to watch the snow melt from the deck.

SMILE Saison
4lbs Franco-Belges Pilsner
1lbs Red Wheat
8oz Crystal 20
1lbs Belgian Clear Candi Sugar
3.15lbs Pilsen LME

1oz Magnum @60
1oz Styrian Goldings @5
1oz Amarillo @FO

and of course Wyeast 3711

 

[Texconsinite]

Yeeeah, so my partial mash attempt was not very successful.
Its been awhile since i did anything more than steeping speicalty grains, and I forgot to heat my water to batch sparge, so I ended up mashing w 1.5 gallons at 150 for more like 90 min, before sparging w .7 gallons of 170, then splitting into two kettles to add LME and hops.

The two batches ended up at 1.036 and 1.033 OG, quite a bit lower than the 1.047 expected :-( This probably cranked the IBUs up a bit.

After 7 days in primary, both session IPAs were down to 1.002. Transferred to secondary and tasted.

The Mosaic (1.033) is INTENSE piney flavor. I'm not a fan of this right now, hope it will mellow out with time. Not sure if its just the amount used, or if Mosaic interacts better with a darker or more malty wort, but no liking this Pine Sol flavor.

The Citra (1.036) on the other hand is hoppy, but in a very pleasantly citrusy way. Im looking forward to drinking this one, and thinking I might have to use Citra again soon.

We'll see how both evolve with a week in secondary. Hopefully the Mosaic tastes less like Pine Sol by then.

Im thinking I dont want to dry hop either one anymore, they have plenty of hop aroma, flavor and bitterness, and with the decreased gravity dont want to overdo it. I finally made two very hop forward ales. Im impressed with how balanced the citra is despite being low gravity and fermenting so dry. This yeast continues to amaze me.

 

[Kiichi]

Well, my Sorachi Ace single hop session saion with green tea and lemon is done. I was surprised that it was not carbed after 1 week since the yeast is so fast. Now, after two, it is done however and really nice. The yeast made it properly dry, but also left a certain smoothness. Very nice. The spice and lemon notes work well and do not overtake since I fermented on the low part of the range. Between the actual lemon, the sorachi, and the yeast the lemon character really is deep and has many sides.

Washed the yeast and got Wheat Saison IPA going now. 5 days in and the krausen has not fallen yet, but stuck at around a thumbs height for the duration. Proper speed and very even fermentation.

 

[troglodytes]

I've got a starter going right now that's about 36 hours in. I just did a gravity check to see how impressive the attenuation was and the starter was only own from 1.035 to 1.01. This is at 67-68F on a stir plate. Is that the norm for these guys...fast start slow finish? Because 71% attenuation just seems low for any yeast starter.

Should I crash now for decanting and brewing tomorrow or let it go overnight and pitch the whole starter?

 

[Kiichi]

Just made an observation about this one after finishing a bottle of my first brew with it: This yeast may not floc amazingly, but what drops out drops. And sticks. I have no chance of just putting some water in the bottle and swirling it out like I was able to do with any other yeast I ever used (and 90% of comercials I drank, the 10% usually being heavily aged). Had to pull out the brush to loosen them.

So that as a little danger to be prepared for when you want to reuse the bottles: Check if the yeast really is all out. Tricky little buggers.

 

[40watt]

Has anyone else ever gotten an ester profile from this yeast that I can only decribe as... Creamsicle?
Or an orange cream ice cream?

This one was a cool ferment. 66-67 degrees.

Pleasant and enjoyable, but definitely not what I expected.