Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[weiht]

It finishes very low and dry without being too thin. I'd like to add some oats for saisons to give it body whilst finishing dry. This yeast however, finishes very dry and crisp as well without thinning too much, BUT it adds to the perceived bitterness. My 33 ibus wort that i split between a pale ale yeast and this came out pretty harsh on the bitterness due to the perceived bitterness and some gypsum added.

Having said that, I'm sure i would have gotten a better beer had I brewed a saison recipe to begin with. Nice citrusy notes from the yeast, anyone else got tartness? Just not very farmhouse funky.

 

[JLW]

First time using this strain. I'm making a Saison du Buff clone for my brother for Christmas. Definitely not what I'm used to as it's day 7 of fermentation and it's still going. About 2-3 seconds per bubble. Sounds like this is pretty typical for 3711? It was never a crazy strong fermentation, just steady activity.

Anything to be concerned about? I'm going to take a grav today to see what's happening, but it just looks like this is a slow and steady yeast.

Normal fermentation.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Thanks! Good to know. Took a grav today and I'm only at 1.012. Still chugging away though so I guess it's just going to take time to get down to 1.008. Fermenting at around 66 probably isn't helping matters. The grav sample tasted fantastic though.

 

[sweetcell]

I guess it's just going to take time to get down to 1.008.

how do you know it's going to get to 1.008? how do you know it won't keep on going? you can't trust a recipe or a website to tell you what your FG is going to be, especially not with this yeast. you gotta let it do its thing and leave it alone until it's reached what it says is FG (as indicated by 3 days of stable gravity readings). my saison finished at 1.005, a friend's went to 1.000.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

how do you know it's going to get to 1.008? how do you know it won't keep on going? you can't trust a recipe or a website to tell you what your FG is going to be, especially not with this yeast. you gotta let it do its thing and leave it alone until it's reached what it says is FG (as indicated by 3 days of stable gravity readings). my saison finished at 1.005, a friend's went to 1.000.

Good point. I'm so used to US-05 since I use it for most of my beers and its like clockwork. First time using a Saison yeast and they're definitely on their own schedule. I was hoping to bottle on Friday, but the bugs seem to have a different plan.

The 1.008 came from the recipe. Although, the krausen has dropped considerably the last day or two so it does look like they're starting to wind down. Just have to be patient I suppose.

 

[JLW]

Good point. I'm so used to US-05 since I use it for most of my beers and its like clockwork. First time using a Saison yeast and they're definitely on their own schedule. I was hoping to bottle on Friday, but the bugs seem to have a different plan.

The 1.008 came from the recipe. Although, the krausen has dropped considerably the last day or two so it does look like they're starting to wind down. Just have to be patient I suppose.

Don't be surprised if you go below 1.008, As others have mentioned this yeast will do what this yeast will do which is dry way out. Both times I have used this yeast I hit 1.001

 

[JLW]

Thanks! Good to know. Took a grav today and I'm only at 1.012. Still chugging away though so I guess it's just going to take time to get down to 1.008. Fermenting at around 66 probably isn't helping matters. The grav sample tasted fantastic though.

One thing to keep in mind is this yeast will put off a lot of the saison funk and flavors at higher temps. I'm sure what you will get at these lower temps. I know people that have fermented tat 90+ degrees. My summer saison I ferment at around 85 degrees and just let it go however high it will go. No control.

 

[grasshopperfirestarter]

In.

Just brewed 10 gallons. Over night chillin. Pitching in morning!

 

[KCBrew]

I brewed a batch last weekend (1-19-2013):

OG 1.051 (82% Beligan Pils, 9% White Wheat, 9% Cane Sugar)
Hops 1oz Northern Brewer@60, 1oz Willamette @5, 1oz Styrian Golding@0
Pitched 1 smack pack of 3711, activated night before and put on a stirplate with 2 cups of pre boil wort for about 4 hours

Day 0:temp 68 OG 1.051-
Day 1:temp 70 High Krausen (about 1.5 inches)
Day 2 temp 72 Gravity 1.030 (Tastes sweet and banana esters are strong, very fruity, Krausen has largely subsided)
Day 3 temp 73 Krausen is gone, looks about like a blue moon 20 minutes after the pour at RT, I'm worried...
Day 4 temp 75 Gravity 1.010 (Still banana-y, still fruity, SWMBO calls it barley juice, looks like a milkshake
Day 5 temp 77
Day 6 temp 80 Gravity 1.006 (Banana is subsiding, still tastes fruity though, at this point I am resigned to have created a wit)
Day 7 temp 80
Day 8 temp 80 Gravity 1.004, now is starting to have a nicer saison profile, banana is gone, still not 'spicy' but it is nicely balanced, without a better description, it tastes like a muted saison. Amazing on the alcohol though, it is 6% and SWMBO remarked that it was a low alcohol beer. I am now thoroughly excited at getting this carbed and drank. I unplugged the ferm-wrap at this point.

Notes: I have a ferm-wrap connected to a Johnson controller with the probe taped to the carboy and covered by a zip-lock filled with blow in insulation, taped tight over the probe with duct tape, differential on the Johnson set at 2 degrees. So the temps listed above are actually the low end of a 2 degree fluctuation.

Also, I got the chance to chat up Stevek Pauwels and he said that they do their Tank 7, which is a favorite of mine at 66 degrees throughout and that will keep things on the spicier side of the yeast, which was news to me, and might be my approach next time. Although it should be noted that it is their own yeast strain. For reference, they use the same yeast on their Saison (Tank 7) as their Quad (Sixth Glass) which have totally different yeast flavor profiles, it's amazing what a belgian yeast will do with temps.

 

[jbags5]

OK, I love this yeast.

Previously used it to brew my favorite ever Saison this summer. Tried to replicate the recipe with a brew on January 1st, went well - 5 gallon batch, mashed at 150ish, OG 1.060. After the first few days of fermentation at 65-70, I kept it in my bathroom with a space heater on, keeping the ambient temp in the 75-80 range.

It has now been 4.5 weeks in primary (I generally don't secondary and just bottle after 3-4 weeks, unless dryhopping), and I'm ready to bottle, but this beer isn't! It's still bubbling every minute or two. Just wow. Think I may transfer to secondary soon, since I don't want bottle bombs.

Still bubbling regularly after 4+ weeks?? That's a first for me!

 

[sweetcell]

Think I may transfer to secondary soon, since I don't want bottle bombs.

transferring to secondary won't prevent bottle bombs. if there are sugars in there that the yeast can still eat, they will eat them. going to secondary will decrease the yeast population so it'll take longer... but they'll get to it eventually. so if you transfer, you're increasing the chances that there will be sugars left in there when you bottle - and increasing your chances of bottle bombs, unless you secondary for a really long time. hence, you shouldn't go to secondary until primary fermentation is complete.

just because it's bubbling doesn't necessarily mean that fermentation is still happening. the beer could be off-gassing, reacting to changes in temps or atmospheric pressure, etc. have you taken gravity readings recently?

 

[beekgeek]

So many 3711 posts and threads -- hopefully this is a reasonable place to post this.

I'm brewing a rye saison tomorrow and plan is to separate 10 gallons of wort to two carboys, pitching a 3724 starter into one and a 3711 starter into the other. I've got good temp control, so was going to start at 68F for a couple of days then ratchet it up to 77F or so over the next several days.

From the many posts on this, I'm expecting the 3724 batch to slow down at around 1.020, and like the idea of re-activating it with some 3711 after the initial fermentation. Which brings me to my question: what's the best method to do this? Few options I considered:

1) Pitch a brand new smack pack of 3711 -- seems kind of wasteful considering the active carboy of 3711 already going (ruled this out)

2) Rack the carboy of 3711 to a new carboy after a week and transfer the 3724 batch onto the 3711 yeast cake. Just wondering if that's rushing the 3711 batch for yeast to clean up?

3) Would a wine thief sample from the 3711 batch have enough active yeast in suspension to inoculate the 3724 (let's say after first 48 hours)?

Other options to consider?

 

[smokinghole]

You will be fine with option three and it's the least amount of work.

 

[passedpawn]

So many 3711 posts and threads -- hopefully this is a reasonable place to post this.

I'm brewing a rye saison tomorrow and plan is to separate 10 gallons of wort to two carboys, pitching a 3724 starter into one and a 3711 starter into the other. I've got good temp control, so was going to start at 68F for a couple of days then ratchet it up to 77F or so over the next several days.

From the many posts on this, I'm expecting the 3724 batch to slow down at around 1.020, and like the idea of re-activating it with some 3711 after the initial fermentation. Which brings me to my question: what's the best method to do this? Few options I considered:

1) Pitch a brand new smack pack of 3711 -- seems kind of wasteful considering the active carboy of 3711 already going (ruled this out)

2) Rack the carboy of 3711 to a new carboy after a week and transfer the 3724 batch onto the 3711 yeast cake. Just wondering if that's rushing the 3711 batch for yeast to clean up?

3) Would a wine thief sample from the 3711 batch have enough active yeast in suspension to inoculate the 3724 (let's say after first 48 hours)?

Other options to consider?

I'd go #2. Might not be any better than 3, but you know a lot of this hobby is gut feel.

 

[el_caro]

So many 3711 posts and threads -- hopefully this is a reasonable place to post this.

I'm brewing a rye saison tomorrow and plan is to separate 10 gallons of wort to two carboys, pitching a 3724 starter into one and a 3711 starter into the other. I've got good temp control, so was going to start at 68F for a couple of days then ratchet it up to 77F or so over the next several days.

From the many posts on this, I'm expecting the 3724 batch to slow down at around 1.020, and like the idea of re-activating it with some 3711 after the initial fermentation. Which brings me to my question: what's the best method to do this? Few options I considered:

1) Pitch a brand new smack pack of 3711 -- seems kind of wasteful considering the active carboy of 3711 already going (ruled this out)

2) Rack the carboy of 3711 to a new carboy after a week and transfer the 3724 batch onto the 3711 yeast cake. Just wondering if that's rushing the 3711 batch for yeast to clean up?

3) Would a wine thief sample from the 3711 batch have enough active yeast in suspension to inoculate the 3724 (let's say after first 48 hours)?

Other options to consider?

Option 4 would be to make the 3711 starter larger or save a bit and step it up with some of the wort from the brew. You could then use this step up starter to reinforce the 3724 if as you expect it stops at 1.020 .

 

[runs4beer]

I've done option 3, I pulled maybe 8 ozs when fermentation appered to be at its peek and pitch it into a slowing/stopped batch that was pitched with T-58 dry yeast. It was at 1.018 when I decided to dose it with 3711 and it finish 1.010. I let go for another 10-14 days after I pitched the 3711.

 

[sweetcell]

i would do a modified version of #2: don't wait a week, wait as long as it takes to get the 3724 to stall out. by then, the 3711 should have completed its fermentation. rack 3711 to another vessel, put 3724 on the 3711 cake. maybe it'll take a week, maybe it won't... i would get locked into a set schedule.

pitching an active starter of 3711, perhaps from cells saves from the initial pitch, is also a good idea.

 

[smokinghole]

Normally I would agree with the more effort necessary approaches. However last time I did this I only used a very small amount of 3711 pitched into the dupont strain. It dried out fine and tasted like dupont not 3711. Racking the dupont portion onto the 3711 cake is overkill and entirely unnecessary. Plus talk about a fairly significant flavor contribution with that much yeast, not from fermentation, but just liquid volume in the yeast culture.

 

[sweetcell]

using the whole cake, while overkill, is indeed the easiest way (read: we're all lazy). the flavor contribution of the 3711 will be minimal since it won't be doing any reproduction. also, it will be pitched into a beer with a certain alcohol content... not the most hospitable enviro for yeast so better to go over than under.

you can cold-crash the 3711 and it will settle out just fine. my 3711 saison is crystal clear.

 

[smokinghole]

Some wine thief of the 3711 sounds like the easiest to me. Quick dunk/spray with sani, poke into 3711, wait a couple seconds, empty into dupont. How's racking it easier?

 

[sweetcell]

Some wine thief of the 3711 sounds like the easiest to me. Quick dunk/spray with sani, poke into 3711, wait a couple seconds, empty into dupont. How's racking it easier?

true enough, that is low-effort.

i'm quite surprised at your experience that one wine thief full was enough to dry it out. one thief wouldn't bring across enough cells IMO. methinks you'd want about a dozen thief's full... but i haven't done it, so there you go.

 

[beekgeek]

Lots of good feedback. Thanks for talking it over.

Holding back some starter (and adding some of the new wort) was a good idea -- unfortunately I'd already pitched the entire starter before sitting down to read these new posts. Next time

I'm going to see how long it takes for the 3724 to konk out (assuming it does). I might try the wine thief idea first and if that doesn't do anything, rack onto the 3711 cake.

Looking forward to comparing the two strains. Thanks again!

 

[Marc77]

Lots of good feedback. Thanks for talking it over.

Holding back some starter (and adding some of the new wort) was a good idea -- unfortunately I'd already pitched the entire starter before sitting down to read these new posts. Next time

I'm going to see how long it takes for the 3724 to konk out (assuming it does). I might try the wine thief idea first and if that doesn't do anything, rack onto the 3711 cake.

Looking forward to comparing the two strains. Thanks again!

When dealing with 3724 I'd leave the 3711 out entirely. 3724 has a range of 70 degrees up to 95 degrees. If you can run it up to higher temps and I think that'll lower your FG, but this is just from what I've heard. I know the temps are right though.

Right now I've got a 3711 at 7 days and am planning to take a gravity sampling tonight. From everything I've heard I'm expecting my gravity reading to be in the single digits. Not bad from the OG being a 1.060 reading. Nothing like a 6.5%-6.8% ABV saison! My next saison will use the 3724....when I have a fermentation chamber. For this one though, I'm going to transfer to a secondary, dry hop with amarillo for a week to 10 days. Remove the hop bag and crash cool it with gelatin for about 3 to 5 days, then bottle.

Let me know what you end up doing, I'll be curious about your approach.

 

[beekgeek]

So far I've left the two strains independent. I brewed and pitched yeast starters May 17 (68F) into 1.052 wort. Have been gradually raising temp on both batches (71F as of May 21) and will continue until about 77-78. Gravity ratings last night (4 days from pitching starters) was 1.030 for the 3711 batch and still 1.040 for 3724 (a little slower than i expected). Going to give them another few days before doing another gravity read and then decide what to do next.

 

[beekgeek]

Update: As predicted, the 3711 outpaced the 3724. Yesterday I bottled the "French" strain batch which has been down at 1.008 for over a week. The Belgian never dropped below 1.030 -- even after adding ~ 250ml of wort from the 3711 batch (my option #3). So after bottling the 3711 (crashed cooled to 50F), I rewarmed the carboy and racked the 3724 onto the 3711 yeast cake. Less than 12 hours later the airlock was kicking out a fair amount of CO2 and the wort continues to show a significant amount of activity. So whether thanks to the aeration, the 3711 yeast cake, or some terrible bacterial infection, I'm optimistic I'll have a second batch of 3724-influenced Saison ready to go soon.

BTW, I think of Saisons being more French Belgian (versus Flemish Belgian) -- any idea why Wyeast has labeled the 3711 strain "French"?

 

[Sebas83]

Brasserie Thiriez

 

[phuff7129]

Just had to chime in. I am doing my first saison and I had read so many good things about 3711 I had to try it. My saison has been in primary for 12 days. Checked the gravity today and it is a super dry 0.998. Tasted the sample and it really tasted nice. Kept the ambient temperature at 62 degrees for the entire fermentation. I am really excited about this one.

 

[jbags5]

Just had to chime in. I am doing my first saison and I had read so many good things about 3711 I had to try it. My saison has been in primary for 12 days. Checked the gravity today and it is a super dry 0.998. Tasted the sample and it really tasted nice. Kept the ambient temperature at 62 degrees for the entire fermentation. I am really excited about this one.

Why did you ferment so low? I usually try to keep my saisons with 3711 at 75+ degrees ambient to get that nice yeasty saison goodness in my beer.

Currently fermenting a batch for about 2 weeks, and it's in my spare bathroom with a damn space heater on to keep the ambient temp around 80. I figured it'd be easier to find 80 degree temps in June, but it's been cooler than usual around here lately.

Anyway, I've never fermented one that low before, and I'm sure you'll end up with great, clean tasting beer, but I'm not sure you'll get the most out of the flavors the 3711 can impart at higher temps.

 

[phuff7129]

Why did you ferment so low? I usually try to keep my saisons with 3711 at 75+ degrees ambient to get that nice yeasty saison goodness in my beer.

Currently fermenting a batch for about 2 weeks, and it's in my spare bathroom with a damn space heater on to keep the ambient temp around 80. I figured it'd be easier to find 80 degree temps in June, but it's been cooler than usual around here lately.

Anyway, I've never fermented one that low before, and I'm sure you'll end up with great, clean tasting beer, but I'm not sure you'll get the most out of the flavors the 3711 can impart at higher temps.

Based on what I had read about 3711 it sounded like it would do a great job at lower temps. My basement stays at a consistent 62 degrees. I figured I would try it at lower temps this time and next time I will have my fermentation chamber done and I can reliably vary temperatures.

 

[tagz]

There are a lot of conflicting reports about temp with 3711 but I got much better flavor from 70-80 than 60-70.