Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[Piratwolf]

I wonder if the aging out of the funkiness has to do with preferred ferm temps. Would higher temps giving more funk last longer? Would fermenting cooler be better to enjoy fresh? Maybe some of the above posters can comment on how long they aged at the preferred temps stated above. I also remember a post claiming that funkiness increased with aging, and I'm curious to know which is right.

I fermented mine on the cool side (68F) and kept it there for maybe 7-8 days before putting it in a room around 70F for a week longer, then primed & bottled and started drinking 7 days later. So that was 21 days Grain-to-Glass. The competition where I won 1st out of 41 entries was about a month later, and now, 3 months after brewing, there are only 5 bottles left (competition entries).

The funk was low from the beginning and remained low throughout. It had that great 3711 silky medium body, an intense citrus-orange start, and a hint of peppery phenol on the finish. The phenols faded first, but everything else has remained pretty much as it started.

 

[smagee]

Awesome info, smagee! Thank you! I'd probably decant the Cointreau, but I hadn't taken the sweetness into account--good call. Did you soak your peels at all or just toss 'em in?

Unless I have some special reason to do otherwise, I just toss 'em. This particular recipe has them added with 5 min left in the boil with the intent of removing them prior to primary, but I typically just leave them in for the entire fermentation.

 

[smagee]

I wonder if the aging out of the funkiness has to do with preferred ferm temps. Would higher temps giving more funk last longer? Would fermenting cooler be better to enjoy fresh? Maybe some of the above posters can comment on how long they aged at the preferred temps stated above. I also remember a post claiming that funkiness increased with aging, and I'm curious to know which is right.

The idea that the fermentation temp might impact the funk retention (heh) hadn't occurred to me; my last actual saison with this, I actually kept the temp somewhat tightly controlled as best my limited means allowed--I recall it hovering in the 70F range according to the external bucket thermometer, so it was probably around 75F fairly consistently. For a saison, that's pretty low, and that batch is pretty mellow now (~1.5 years, I think), albeit still delicious. I just brought it to a HB share recently where it was lauded both for complexity (by saison fans) and its mild funk (for those that prefer mellower beer). The funkiness in this case definitely mellowed with time, and it faded into almost a tartness that I'd have associated with a sour instead. This was a rye saison, so the rye character may be coming out a bit stronger as the funk fades away, but it's been interesting to see the progression. I'm planning to re-brew this sometime this month, time permitting; maybe I'll let 3711 take the temp where it wishes and see how it differs from my memory of the original.

The wit and tripel I did with it were less tightly controlled, but they were also done in winter, so I can't really speak to how hot they got. I *think* the wit fermented warmer, probably closer to 80F at its peak, but my memory may be messing with me. The wit specifically mellowed in funkiness with a couple months at ambient conditioning, but it was still very obvious that a saison yeast was used; I'm *hoping* the tripel does the same thing once I throw it in the kegerator towards the end of the month.

 

[Piratwolf]

I fermented mine on the cool side (68F) and kept it there for maybe 7-8 days before putting it in a room around 70F for a week longer, then primed & bottled and started drinking 7 days later. So that was 21 days Grain-to-Glass. The competition where I won 1st out of 41 entries was about a month later, and now, 3 months after brewing, there are only 5 bottles left (competition entries).

The funk was low from the beginning and remained low throughout. It had that great 3711 silky medium body, an intense citrus-orange start, and a hint of peppery phenol on the finish. The phenols faded first, but everything else has remained pretty much as it started.

A timely update from earlier. Just took my first hydro reading on the new batch--1.006 after 8 days! Gotta love this yeast!

For this batch, pitched around 68F, I employed no temp control at all. Put the carboy in a closet that probably averaged 72-73F and just let it rock n roll. The Belgian character--spicy phenols and citrus over a hint of sweat/funk-- is MUCH more pronounced. I'll keep tabs on that as it ages to see what differences may emerge in longevity.

 

[JLW]

I found one bottle of last year saison at about 12 months. I'll drink it this weekend and give you guys a readout.

 

[ChessRockwell]

Anyone have any opinions on dry hops that work well with this yeast? My first 3711 batch is finishing up now. I kept the recipe simple to let the yeast come through and get a feel for it (just pilsner, a touch of wheat, and a little sugar, no dry hop). As it was getting close to time to bottle, I remembered I had a couple 1 gallon jugs so I filled two of 'em and dry hopped with .4oz Cascade in one, and .4oz Willamette in the other. Thought a little citrus, a little spice might be nice, and I've still got 3 gallons with no dry hop. Any opinions on this? Do you prefer your 3711 saisons with no dry hop or any in particular?

 

[smagee]

I like a nice hoppy saison; I find that spicier ones like saaz or chinook do well to complement the natural flavors of the yeast, but cascade or centennial can be excellent for complementing the citrusy aspects of it as well. Of your choices, I'd bet the cascade will be better, but that's just because I haven't had a lot of great experiences with willamette, myself .

 

[tennesseean_87]

I wasn't saying that funk retention might increase with fermentation temps, but that funk level might. So if Saison A was fermented cool and enjoyed young, and Saison B fermented warm and aged several months, by that time the funk level might have faded some, but only to the point of a young Saison A. If Saison A were aged, it might get boring because the mellower funk would die out to nothing, as one poster mentioned above.

That was my hypothesis, anyway. I'm still interested in anyone's results.

 

[Jboggeye]

I'm quite glad this thread has been more active lately. Although my brothers won't let me brew a saison anytime soon- we've made wayyy too many saisons- I'm itching to get more of a handle on this yeast.

We mentioned dry hops- I've done that with a little hallertau on a table saison, and it was lovely. I think the floral aspects of noble hops really complement this yeast.
(think Thierez extra- one of my favs)

What bothers me so much about this yeast are two things:

1. aging this yeast- while still good- gets a little boring. It gets a little too one-dimensional citrusy.
Fermenting hot does help- but I don't like the higher alcohols that come out-

2. My biggest grief about the yeast is that people ALWAYS prefer the 3724 when I make saisons. So it's hard to really want to get this one perfect with 3724 available.
(I do like blending them)

 

[Jboggeye]

Have you guys tried Ama Bionda?

I have a sneaking suspicion that they are using 3711 or a very similar yeast. This leads me to think of 3711 as a perfect one for a "smooth" and easy drinking saison. Both Ama Bionda and Thierez extra have that really nice bready character that other saisons don't seem to have. (think Dupont)

I know a lot of this has to do with the soft/hard water- so it looks like I have more experimentation to do.

 

[ChessRockwell]

I find that spicier ones like saaz or chinook do well to complement the natural flavors of the yeast, but cascade or centennial can be excellent for complementing the citrusy aspects of it as well.

That was kind of my thinking, just trying to compliment different aspects of the yeast using hops I had on hand. Willamette smelled pretty spicy so I said what the hell, guess I'll find out if it works or not. For a brief moment there I looked at the Chinook, but my rational side was like "no, don't do it! not here! that's for IPA's!" Now I kinda wish I had...

 

[Piratwolf]

I wonder if Sorachi or Citra would work? Haven't used either, but the citrus/lemon aspects I've read about might bring out interesting flavors. Maybe Amarillo? I sometimes get a bit of tropical fruit in my Amarillo Blonde....

 

[Jboggeye]

I did put amarillo once, that's good. Citra would be good

sorachi ace is a disgusting hop, don't do it.

 

[Sebas83]

Might not be exactly what you're looking for but pacific jade and styrian celeia are cool
Hops at knockout/dry hop

 

[runs4beer]

I did a 10 gallon batch and split it, one's on 3711 and the other on a belgian strain from a local brewery. It's basicly a 60% pills 40% wheat and I did Citra at 60 min. ahtanum at 20mins for 45 IBUs and 3oz ahtanum 0 mins. I brewed it last weekend, I'll let you know how that comes out... I've done the same thing with all Amarillo and it was great. Sorachi is a good hop for a saison and it good in Brooklyn single hop by the same name.

 

[runs4beer]

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[runs4beer]

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[Piratwolf]

sorachi ace is a disgusting hop, don't do it.

Would you care to clarify?

I've never used it but enjoyed the Brooklyn Sorachi Ace the time I tasted it.

 

[Jboggeye]

Would you care to clarify?

I've never used it but enjoyed the Brooklyn Sorachi Ace the time I tasted it.

hehe, I HATE brooklyn Sorachi Ace, and the lemony flavor of that hop. I was jesting- but I really don't like it.


although you may like it

 

[msmith92]

Lemony©2012

 

[smagee]

I wasn't saying that funk retention might increase with fermentation temps, but that funk level might. So if Saison A was fermented cool and enjoyed young, and Saison B fermented warm and aged several months, by that time the funk level might have faded some, but only to the point of a young Saison A. If Saison A were aged, it might get boring because the mellower funk would die out to nothing, as one poster mentioned above.

That was my hypothesis, anyway. I'm still interested in anyone's results.

Ahh, I misread then. In that case, yes, funk level goes up along with temperature, especially when it's young. Part of the reason I've conditioned the last couple batches for so long is because I wanted the funk level to subside, but I deliberately fermented them at whatever temp they wanted to reach. I like a yeast that encourages me to be lazy, and saisons are excellent for that!

And your hypothesis seems to reflect my own experiences; lately, if I'm using 3711, I know its funk will subside over time, so if I let it go crazy with the temperature, I can set the batch aside for a while until I free up some dispenser space.

 

[tagz]

Is there a consensus on this? Does everyone experience funky flavors decreasing in 3711 over time?

 

[2brew1cup]

I've had 5 gals on this (3711) since febuary.. do you think that's too long on the yeast cake? What do y'all think?

 

[Piratwolf]

I've had 5 gals on this (3711) since febuary.. do you think that's too long on the yeast cake? What do y'all think?

Probably ok but I don't know if I'd leave it much longer.

 

[JLW]

Is there a consensus on this? Does everyone experience funky flavors decreasing in 3711 over time?

I'm going to test with my summer saison mashed at 149* and fermented in the mid to upper 80's.

I have obe bottle remaining from last year it's about 12 months old now. I'll drink it tonight and post the results.

 

[smagee]

Incidentally, the 3711 Tripel just went into the fridge (I blew through my IBA way faster than anticipated!); next week I'll be able to post an update on that as well.

@2brew: It'll be fine, but I agree that it's probably time to rack/bottle it. If you're bottle-conditioning, you'll probably want to toss some extra yeast in to make sure you've got active cells for carbonation.

 

[JLW]

If you're bottle-conditioning, you'll probably want to toss some extra yeast in to make sure you've got active cells for carbonation.

Definitely need those extra yeast cells. For a traditional saison I like a well carbonated beer.

 

[JLW]

First, here is my recipe this has been brewed twice now. The two differences between batches are Batch #2 was bulk aged for 5 months and then kegged. Batch # 1 was botteled and drank as soon as it was carbbed.


Recipe: Saison
Brewer: Le Freak
Asst Brewer:
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.93 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 6.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.8 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 64.3 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 21.4 %
1 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 4 7.1 %
1.75 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 23.6 IBUs
2.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 20.0 mi Hop 6 9.8 IBUs
1.10 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.00 Yeast 8 -
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 7.1 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 17.50 qt of water at 162.9 F 148.0 F 90 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.89gal, 3.59gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:

 

[JLW]

I poured a glass of last years summer saison which is now about 12 months old and a glass of this years saison which is kegged. Both were mashed at 148-149* for 90 min. Batch #1 allowed the fermentation temps to run wild uncontrolled and I would estimate Batch # 1 fermented at a minimum mid 80's to upper 80's if not 90*. Batch #2 I started fermentation around 70* and ramped up to 80* over the course of a few days. As mentioned in previous post Batch 1 was botteled and drank fresh and Batch 2 was bulk aged for 5 months and then kegged.

Batch 1: still has the saison funk is still crisp but I believe has lost the peppery phenol's that I love about this beer. The beer has held up well to aging and tastes incredible.
Batch 2: Has the saison funk is crisp but also seems to be missing the peppery phenol's this has been confirmed by a friend as well. This is a great beer for sitting on the deck and enjoying a hot summer afternoon (well both are).

My conclusion is Batch #1 is the better beer a year later. In fact drinking batch 1 then flushing with water and sampling Batch #2, the second is a little bland.

With all that said I believe my next batch will not be bulk aged and I will drink fresh I think the beers hold up nicely to aging but the phenol's that make these beers seem to diminish over time.

Here's to drinking beer on a friday afternoon in perfect weather when technically I should still be at work.

 

[ChessRockwell]

Another question for you 3711 experts...

There's a local homebrew competition on July 7th, and at that time my 3711 saison will be in the bottle 3 weeks exactly. It's about 7.7% and temp was held at 68f the first 48 hours, then allowed to rise, never got above 76f. It was a month in primary with no secondary.

My gut tells me this isn't enough time to be quite ready, but does anyone else think different? Have you had one come out good this young? I'm not trying to win the competition, just looking to get my first real judges feedback on my beer. Just don't want to bother if it's not going to be ready...