WY1318 Questions

[logdrum]

I have an immersion chiller I use in the kettle. Maybe this is a source of infection? Its been used in every single batch. I usually rinse it out after using, then soak in the kettle. I also insert it into the boiling wort for 15 mins to sanitize so I am not sure this could be the issue but maybe.

I was thinking plate chiller w debris stuck in it. Doubtful an IC is the source.

 

[leesmith]

Foam stopper in starter flask?
Stirbar?
The only infection I’ve ever gotten was in a starter I made. I use Brett in some beers and I think I didn’t sterilize the stir bar good. Fortunately I caught the infection before pitching the yeast which was 1318.
Marjen are you in CT by the way?

 

[marjen]

Foam stopper in starter flask?
Stirbar?

I use tin foil over the stopper and always spray it with star-san. I also dunk the stirbar in the flask when its filled with star-san.

Yep, I am in CT.

 

[leesmith]

I don’t trust PBW and Starsan to do the job anymore.
I have made a practice of giving a hot 160 degree bath for a half hour of parts that I’m concerned about such as my stir bar. From my limited research this temp is below temps that some plastics can’t handle but high enough to kill yeast or lacto.
I don’t use a foam stopper because they just seem like a playground for things to hide in.

You said there was a film on the top of the beer sometimes...a pellicle forming? Brett infection?

Sterilize your starter equipment. This may be it.

I think I know the LHBS you are referring to. I agree.

 

[marjen]

I think I know the LHBS you are referring to. I agree

Yeah, I think I am still going to stop in there anyway and bring a sample to see if they can at least help identify the taste. Part of me thinks at this point it might be hop matter. It seems to fit some of the descriptions I am reading. But I would expect it to drop out after hitting the keg and keezer.

 

[leesmith]

Hop burn or infection they should be able to differentiate for you.

I’m in Bethel and if you ever need a second opinion I’m happy to help out.

Good luck figuring it out. Please let us know.

 

[dyqik]

You said there was a film on the top of the beer sometimes...a pellicle forming? Brett infection?

With these beers, it could just be hop oils in a slick, or something from the flaked grains, I think.

But yeah, infection should be easily distinguishable from hop burn. And should also eventually give you a too low FG.

 

[hezagenius]

I've had that hop burn stick around for a few weeks while the keg is in the fridge. Have you experienced that burn after several weeks in a keg? I get that burn with all my NEIPAs so I just let the keg carb up at serving pressure over 2 weeks and by then, it's pretty much faded away.

 

[marjen]

I’m in Bethel and if you ever need a second opinion I’m happy to help out.

I may take you up on that some time if I continue to struggle. Might be good to have an experienced brewer watch my process and help identify any potential issues. I am close by in Oxford.

 

[marjen]

I've had that hop burn stick around for a few weeks while the keg is in the fridge.

Is it a really nasty burn in the back of the mouth that gets worse once you swallow the beer? And sticks around for a long time with a crappy taste? For all the hops I used I really am getting no real citrus aroma or taste. Its just really dull and blah.

 

[hezagenius]

Is it a really nasty burn in the back of the mouth that gets worse once you swallow the beer? And sticks around for a long time with a crappy taste? For all the hops I used I really am getting no real citrus aroma or taste. Its just really dull and blah.

The burn I get is like you chewed on a hop pellet. Very harsh and astringent and it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth for a while. When you look at the beer, you can see the hop particles floating in it. Once those settle out, the beer gets much better. If your beer doesn't improve after a few weeks at serving temps, then it's probably not that.

 

[leesmith]

I may take you up on that some time if I continue to struggle. Might be good to have an experienced brewer watch my process and help identify any potential issues. I am close by in Oxford.

Don’t hesitate to PM me. Would enjoy meeting a fellow brewer.

How do you keg hop? And do you leave the beer on the hops?

 

[Bamsdealer]

It's an infection somewhere. They will dull and blah hop flavor and aroma as you described. Could be your ic or kettle valve but i doubt it? Likely starter or transfer equipment, valves, tubing, keg posts? A friend had a recurring infection that had to do with a valve on his conical. Infections every time he used the conical after none for years of using carboys. Only time I had infections is twice from a valve on a fermenter and once from reusing harvested conan yeast 7 times. lol. I brew great ipas with similar recipes.


Honestly, I'd go simple. Use tap water, treat with a campden tablet. IPAs are forgiving. Mash, boil, keep the lid away from your kettle, chill, into a clean and sanitized fermenter. Aerate by shaking. No starter. Yeast right into 60-70 degree wort. Keep under 70 for 3 or 4 days then forget about temps. One dose of dry hops at day 7 to 10, transfer to keg day 14. I've found little difference in the final product using tricks to limit oxygen, pressurized transfers, etc. I now use buckets exclusively and transfer with an auto siphon.

I wish I were closer or I'd brew with you. It's a shame, because it sounds like you've done your homework, got good equipment and have the process right. Personally, I've found brewing to be very forgiving and more enjoyable after I got away from meticulous notes, OCD sanitization, recipe research, etc. I typically have grains and hops on hand for pale ales, ipas, porters and stouts. Recipes are on the fly and I'm fermenting within 4 hours of heading downstairs. I rarely do starters anymore. Brew a beer with an ABV under 6, direct pitch then piggyback with a bigger beer in a few days when you can top crop or save the yeast for a couple months.

Good luck, brew with someone and dont give up.

 

[Bamsdealer]

The burn I get is like you chewed on a hop pellet. Very harsh and astringent and it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth for a while. When you look at the beer, you can see the hop particles floating in it. Once those settle out, the beer gets much better. If your beer doesn't improve after a few weeks at serving temps, then it's probably not that.

Well said.

 

[marc1]

It does sound to me like it could be burn from hop pellets.

For water treatment, all you give is a ratio of gypsum and CaCl2. What are they in ppm? 150ppm:75ppm Cl:Sulfate is very different from, say, 500ppm:250ppm or 20ppm:10ppm Cl:Sulfate. Are you adding acid to adjust pH? Building up from RO is great, but there's not enough info in what you've posted.

 

[lolcats]

I had the exact same issue on the current batch in my keg, with a harsh astringent hop burn bitterness on a NE DIPA with 1318. After 3 weeks in the keg, the burn faded a little but was still there.

On my current batch fermenting, I went with new yeast, less hops and lactic acid in the mash. I'm also thinking of stopping using pellet hops in the dry hop. Using only LupulN2 and hop oils.

 

[couchsending]

The burn is yeast and hops still in suspension. I don’t see any mention of any cold crashing in fermenter at all? You said you can’t do that? No where to move it to cool it down? You need to get the bad stuff out of suspension. You’re adding all these extra proteins and soooo many hops and adding them during fermentation that the there is just way too much stuff left in suspension. It’s not high ferm temps, you’ll get some odd flavors at high temps but none like you describe.

Make a simple 5% beer with some 2 row and maybe one charcter Malt with half the hops or none at all and see what happens. Bag the hops (did you mention whether you’re doing that or not? Try to crash cool it before transfer. I would also avoid dumping the trub personally. If you’re doing a good job of trying to minimize it in transfer then it won’t have an affect on your beer. You’re probably not using whirlfloc I would assume, I would start.
Move your DH addition to a different time or split it up. Change the process to see what happens.

You’re still using the fermentausarus? I don’t know exactly how they work but if there is a valve have you taken it apart if possible? I would put everything you own that touches cold wort in really hot water, boiling if the material can handle it.

Are you mixing the Star San at the exact ratio they specify? Are you rinsing the PBW well after you use it?

If you’re getting the unitank do you have the ability to CIP? Cause you’re going to need to.

 

[Morrey]

Look I appreciate the help, its just when looking at this I really struggle to see how sanitation is the cause of all my issues. Especially with fermenters that were brand new soaked in PBW and soaked in star san. Then followed same procedures as I did prior to my issues.

Maybe there is a massive infection that has just killed all my equipment? Can that happen? QUOTE]



I feel your struggle and know this is stressful to you following good success that suddenly turned south.

After distilling down all the info passed back and forth, there has got to be a reason that your good beers have taken a turn for the worse. My biggest thought is that you have developed an infection that continues to plague you. We thought all along it may be temp control with fermentation, but this is looking less likely than infections.

Are you using Star San, and if so, is it of the suggested diluted strength? Places bacteria can hide are where you get infected. Take for example I have been using Ss BrewTech 7G buckets. Yeah I know its a PITA to take that silicone gasket out of the lid to sanitize...but this is a super place for bacteria to hide. The ball valve and racking arm is another great place for bacteria to hide, so I faithfully DISSASSEMBLE and soak each and every component, seal, gasket, ball valve...etc. I know this is a major chore, but somewhere it sounds like you have bacteria hiding and causing problems.

My brother in law has no temp control other than sitting in a corner of his house. I know what non-temp controlled beer tastes like and while it is not what I'd call good beer, it typically isn't what I call dumper beer either.

I know this is stressful to you, and hope this doesn't sway you from your original goal of growing your brew operation.

 

[marjen]

So based on feedback here, this week I completely broke down all valves and connectors on the fermentasarus, and soaked them over night in PBW after scrubbing them as well. I also filled both fermenters to the very top with a slightly strnger than recommended solution of PBW. I also have run my starter flasks through the dishwasher on the hottest setting along with the stir bars.

Also now that the beer has been in the keg for 2+ days I poured out about 2 pints to get beer off the bottom to see if this is related to hops and or yeast. Tonight I will pour out another 1/2 pint and then sample and see if its tasting any better.

For those that asked I do drop the hops in lose. I am thinking next time to use a bag both in the kettle and in the fermenter. I am going to brew a simpler 5 gallon batch this weekend, I am going to shoot for a 5% of so pale ale. Going to use 10 lb 2-row, 1 lb white wheat and 1 lb flaked wheat and no other grans. I am also going to cut the hops in half. Since I really cleaned the starter flasks I think I will still make a starter. I am also going to let the site bar boil in the pot while making the start to sterilize it more.

I think at this point its either an infection or hops/yeast. I think temp control can be ruled out.

 

[marjen]

For water treatment, all you give is a ratio of gypsum and CaCl2. What are they in ppm? 150ppm:75ppm Cl:Sulfate is very different from, say, 500ppm:250ppm or 20ppm:10ppm Cl:Sulfate. Are you adding acid to adjust pH? Building up from RO is great, but there's not enough info in what you've posted.

I always do a 2:1 (2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon) for a 5 gallon batch. I have flipped ratios between gypson/ and CACO2 a couple times to see which is better. No difference that I can really see.

 

[couchsending]

Just make the starter in the flask. Sanitizes when you boil the DME for 10 minutes. Pretty much zero chance of any sort of nasties.

You should try a beer without wheat and oats as well. I don’t use wheat or oats anymore in hoppy beers and I can make them just as hazy if I so desire although I’m my opinion the beers I make that err on the clearer side taste better and te d to have more defined aroma.

 

[leesmith]

6 gallons into Fermenter.
Move to keg on day 10
4oz Mosaic 1 oz Citra 1 oz Ekuanot 1 oz Columbus on Day 3 Dry hop

From your first recipe post I read this as keg hopping but now from your response I can see...it's out of order right?

6 gallons into Fermenter
4oz Mosaic 1 oz Citra 1 oz Ekuanot 1 oz Columbus on Day 3 Dry hop
Move to keg on day 10.

You don't need to bag anything if you don't want to. If you keg hopped you would need to bag the hops or filter the dip tube...that's why I asked. Keg hopping can produce this burn very easily.

On brew day, after I whirlpool chill, I let the beer sit for quite some time before racking to a fermentor. I then let it sit even longer....like an hour or two while I clean up and then rack to primary. This lets more trub and hop matter settle out. Yes, I use whirlfloc for NEIPAs.

You might just have a lot of hop matter in suspension. That burn should go away as the beer sits cold, on gas and conditions. It can take more than two days for it to lesson or go away depending on the amounts (and types) used. If it doesn't go away (like someone else mentioned) then you have an infection most likely.

Your plan is good. Can't wait to hear the results.

 

[leesmith]

I always do a 2:1 (2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon) for a 5 gallon batch. I have flipped ratios between gypson/ and CACO2 a couple times to see which is better. No difference that I can really see.

Any ph adjustments?

 

[marc1]

I always do a 2:1 (2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon) for a 5 gallon batch. I have flipped ratios between gypson/ and CACO2 a couple times to see which is better. No difference that I can really see.

Are you actually adding CaCO2? That's chalk, and it really is not ideal to add to beer. You should be adding CaCl2, calcium chloride.

 

[couchsending]

So based on feedback here, this week I completely broke down all valves and connectors on the fermentasarus, and soaked them over night in PBW after scrubbing them as well. I also filled both fermenters to the very top with a slightly strnger than recommended solution of PBW. I also have run my starter flasks through the dishwasher on the hottest setting along with the stir bars.

Also now that the beer has been in the keg for 2+ days I poured out about 2 pints to get beer off the bottom to see if this is related to hops and or yeast. Tonight I will pour out another 1/2 pint and then sample and see if its tasting any better.

For those that asked I do drop the hops in lose. I am thinking next time to use a bag both in the kettle and in the fermenter. I am going to brew a simpler 5 gallon batch this weekend, I am going to shoot for a 5% of so pale ale. Going to use 10 lb 2-row, 1 lb white wheat and 1 lb flaked wheat and no other grans. I am also going to cut the hops in half. Since I really cleaned the starter flasks I think I will still make a starter. I am also going to let the site bar boil in the pot while making the start to sterilize it more.

I think at this point its either an infection or hops/yeast. I think temp control can be ruled out.

Your beers need time to cold condition. If you’re not crashing before transfer you’re getting a ton of extra junk in the keg especially with that huge hop load. I would try keeping that keg at 32-35 degrees for 5-7 days to drop as much yeast/polyphenols out of suspension as possible. Don’t put it on gas during that time, just hit it a few times with high PSI to keep the lid sealed. After said time hook up a party tap to blow out as much trub then transfer to a serving keg and then carbonate. If you’re diligent about your o2 pickup you won’t be losing any hop aroma or goodness.

 

[couchsending]

Are you using Star San, and if so, is it of the suggested diluted strength? Places bacteria can hide are where you get infected. Take for example I have been using Ss BrewTech 7G buckets. Yeah I know its a PITA to take that silicone gasket out of the lid to sanitize...but this is a super place for bacteria to hide. The ball valve and racking arm is another great place for bacteria to hide, so I faithfully DISSASSEMBLE and soak each and every component, seal, gasket, ball valve...etc. I know this is a major chore, but somewhere it sounds like you have bacteria hiding and causing problems.

The complete disassemble is a must especially with these ball valves of the SS Brewtech stuff. I generally rinse abf scrub as much of the junk out of the conical and lid as possible. I take the lid gasket off, throw it in the fermentor and fill with hot water and pbw. Leave it overnight. Next day empty and rinse with hot water and take off every valve and disassemble and soak in hot pbw for an hour or so then rinse and soak in Star San then reassemble everything, install and fill fermentor with Star San diluted to the exact specs and let sit, gasket still in conical. I don’t reassemble gasket until I drain it.

I ha e upgraded most of my ball valves to butterfly now cause disassembleing them every time just got old.

Only thing I really don’t like about their conicals are all the weldless fittings so every 5 beers or so I completely disassemble those and boil the rubber gaskets. I sometimes wonder if I should do that more often.

 

[marjen]

Any ph adjustments?

No.

CaCl2, calcium chloride.

Yes, lol, sorry. Chemistry was never my best subject.

 

[couchsending]

Download Bru’n water and learn to use it. Water and PH are kind of important. Buy a gram scale and a PH meter while you’re at it. Id maybe hold off on the $1200 uni tank until you get a few more things dialed.

 

[dyqik]

Using Bru'n water and the reported 2 teaspoon CaCl and 1 teaspoon CaSO4 (or the other way round) with the first recipe above in 8.75 gal of RO, I get a mash pH of 5.5, so I doubt that the mash is way off in pH. Lowering it a little wouldn't hurt though, about 4 ml of 88% lactic acid would do it.

 

[lolcats]

Your beers need time to cold condition. If you’re not crashing before transfer you’re getting a ton of extra junk in the keg especially with that huge hop load. I would try keeping that keg at 32-35 degrees for 5-7 days to drop as much yeast/polyphenols out of suspension as possible. Don’t put it on gas during that time, just hit it a few times with high PSI to keep the lid sealed. After said time hook up a party tap to blow out as much trub then transfer to a serving keg and then carbonate. If you’re diligent about your o2 pickup you won’t be losing any hop aroma or goodness.

Offtopic: Can you do this without transferring to another keg? Why couldn't you carbonate while crashing in the keg? Does sediment at the bottom of the keg impact flavor on the beer if undisturbed?