Wroxbrew's 20 gallon stout tank build

[bhchrist]

I just picked up a bunch of Amarrilo. I might have to try that. I've never combined Citra/Amarillo together. Looks like a good recipe. I use nugget also as my bittering hop. Let me know how yours comes out.

Wrox,

So, the Kern River Citra clone may be the best beer I have brewed. It has been in the keg around 4 weeks and is probably at its peak right now. Aroma is fantastic and it dried out very nicely (I tend to prefer a dry IPA or DIPA like Firestone-Walker). Very drinkable and hides the higher ABV well. This will be a regular brew if I can keep getting Citra and Amarillo.

 

[WroxBrew]

Wrox,

So, the Kern River Citra clone may be the best beer I have brewed. It has been in the keg around 4 weeks and is probably at its peak right now. Aroma is fantastic and it dried out very nicely (I tend to prefer a dry IPA or DIPA like Firestone-Walker). Very drinkable and hides the higher ABV well. This will be a regular brew if I can keep getting Citra and Amarillo.

Thanks, I'm thinking of making it my next IPA, as my Citra (3c's) recipe was a little off. It came out really one dimensional in both malt flavor and bitterness. Not bad, but not great either. I'm going to try to stock up on some more Amarillo as this one seems to disappear quickly. I have a vacuum sealer now , so that should help with preserving it longer.

I have since tweeked my malt profile and bittering hops on that recipe for a newer batch and I'm liking it much better. I split it into 3 5 gallon fermenters and dry hopped them separately. One Simcoe, One Amarillo, and one Zythos. The Simcoe turned out as a big grapefruit bomb and was the overall favorite at a party I brought them to.

I have a cascade IPA in the fermenter currently with another malt profile, and some trusty Notty for what I am hoping to be a nice dry DIPA. Original gravity was 1.070, and should finish in the upper 7 to 8% range.

 

[RobotWerewolfLabs]

Thanks very much for posting this. I'm looking a similar build and I had a few questions.

1. Any further thoughts/regrets?
2. Can you comfortably brew a 5 gallon batch?
3. What do you use for your recirculation setup?
5. Thoughts about RIMS in this arrangement?
6. How long does it take to clean up?

Wow, that's more than I thought. Congrats on a great setup.

 

[bhchrist]

3. What do you use for your recirculation setup?
5. Thoughts about RIMS in this arrangement?

You have me thoroughly intrigued as to the missing question 4!

I am a tad jealous of your Portland location and ability to:

1. Check out the equipment first hand
3. Avoid Shipping costs
4. Avoid Shipping costs

My questions to Wrox are how did your Citra re-brew turn out and what do you think of the conical? I have gone back and forth on whether to get a conical or continue using Better Bottles and/or buckets.

 

[WroxBrew]

Thanks very much for posting this. I'm looking a similar build and I had a few questions.

1. Any further thoughts/regrets?
2. Can you comfortably brew a 5 gallon batch?
3. What do you use for your recirculation setup?
5. Thoughts about RIMS in this arrangement?
6. How long does it take to clean up?

Wow, that's more than I thought. Congrats on a great setup.

Thanks. I am very happy overall with this setup and getting better brewing each batch I make.

1. I have no regrets. The system works as it was Intended. Both Stout tanks and all the great info from everyone on this forum actually made the process of building this relatively painless. I am adding a few more valves and a third pump, but this is more luxury and a little less fussing with hoses when brewing then a necessity.

2.I have not tried. The smallest batch I attempted was 10 gallons. It may be an issue in the boil kettle. It has a sloped bottom and the level of wort may not stay above the heating element. See my "big oops" thread. It would probably be covered at the beginning of the boil, but may not stay that way with some evaporation and a rolling boil.

3. I currently use Chugger pumps. During mashing I recirculate through a herms coil in the HLT. After the boil I pump through a Counter flow chiller back into the whirlpool inlet on the boil kettle. Once it is sufficiently cooled I remove the Chiller from the chain to get a better whirlpool effect in the kettle.

5. Since the HLT has a herms coil, the rims tube isn't really needed. I'm pretty much doing single infusions, and with a 5500 watt element, I can still adjust mash temps a few degrees fairly quickly.

6. Clean up with a system this big takes some time, but I've found that if you do your process in an efficient way, most of the cleaning is light. 30+ pounds of spent grain is the kicker. The grain will stay hot for along time (24hrs) unless you wash it with cold water which I find wasteful, but it will start to sour if you let it naturally cool off. It takes about 30-45 min just to clean the mash tun . The HLT doesn't see anything but water, so there is not much to clean there. I pull the heating element every other brew to check on rust build up which will happen (don't leaveStanding water in the tank for any period of time). It's very light surface rust and is cleaned up easily. The boil kettle element will be all crudded up and needs to be cleaned after every brew. Pumps/ hoses/ chiller and valves get a quick rinse at the end of the brew day and a more thorough cleaning prior to the next brew day. I figure I spend about 1.5 hours prep/setup and 1.5 hours clean up on a brew. They all suggest you take apart the valves and pumps every brew, but I've gone to an every other regime and haven't had an issue yet.

 

[RobotWerewolfLabs]

Oops! Sorry about 4. Thanks for the detailed response. Fur completeness:

4. Is tangential inlet for a whirlpool worthwhile, or just more cleanup?

 

[stonebrewer]

Wrox: Nice setup! I am slowly moving towards a setup like yours. I have the 20G Stout mash tun with bottom outlet and there are a few minor quibbles I have with it. First, the thermometer is nowhere near accurate. It is about 10 degrees lower than the actual wort temperature. I have no idea what causes this but think it might be due in part to stratification in the tun. Second, I would like to have had them tack on some SS mesh screen to the back side of the false bottom as I get a bit too much grain making its way out of the tun. I do direct fire recirculating mashes, BTW. If I was doing this with a RIMS setup, I would be afraid of too much grain getting into the tube and adding off flavors, but maybe I am overthinking that. Third, I tried to use the sparge arm during recirculation, but because of the false bottom issue, it clogs badly and means I have to change over from an elbow and tube to the sparge arm. Kind of a pain, but is workable. BTW when the sparge arm clogs, the pressure from the pumps causes a spray that makes a mess and screws up the grain bed. Don't try this at home kids, as it makes a mess!

Cleaning the tank is a bit of a chore as well. I can't imagine going larger than this and being able to clean in a home setting. I generally scoop out the mash and give it to a friend for his chickens, then I spray it out with a garden hose outside to get it mostly clean. I set it aside and then after pitching I give it a good cleanup with bar keepers friend, dry thoroughly, and put away until the next brew day.

Are you seeing the same thing with the thermometer and false bottom with your setup?

Cheers!

 

[WroxBrew]

You have me thoroughly intrigued as to the missing question 4!

I am a tad jealous of your Portland location and ability to:

1. Check out the equipment first hand
3. Avoid Shipping costs
4. Avoid Shipping costs

My questions to Wrox are how did your Citra re-brew turn out and what do you think of the conical? I have gone back and forth on whether to get a conical or continue using Better Bottles and/or buckets.

1. I realized that I had run out of Citra! I thought I had a lb. left, but it turns out I didn't. I did manage to locate some and I'm waiting on delivery. On a good note, My original batch that has been aging has gotten significantly better and less one dimensional. Only 3 22's left of it though.

If you are not going to harvest yeast right away, I would tend to shy away from it. At the moment I'm using both it and three 6 gallon plastic buckets. The conical is big, and I wish the legs were a little longer so the dump valve was higher. If you decide to get one, make sure you have a place for it that makes working with it easy. I just moved it to the basement for the summer to keep it cooler, but I have to transfer the wort up and down the stairs in buckets. I'm not a big fan of this, but its better then fermenting in the mid to high 70's. My old rock foundation basement is less then ideal for being sanitary, but does stay quite cool and fairly consistent.

 

[bhchrist]

If you decide to get one, make sure you have a place for it that makes working with it easy.

Thanks for the info. If I go that route, it will be with a upright freezer using my Kickstarter Fermostat (LINK) temperature controller once it arrives. That also means buying an upright freezer. The more I think about it, I may just get a larger chest freezer and skip the conical, especially considering I can make a bigger starter and reserve yeast from that for future batches.

Glad to hear your Citra is improving. Such a nice treat when that happens.

 

[WroxBrew]

Wrox: Nice setup! I am slowly moving towards a setup like yours. I have the 20G Stout mash tun with bottom outlet and there are a few minor quibbles I have with it. First, the thermometer is nowhere near accurate. It is about 10 degrees lower than the actual wort temperature. I have no idea what causes this but think it might be due in part to stratification in the tun. Second, I would like to have had them tack on some SS mesh screen to the back side of the false bottom as I get a bit too much grain making its way out of the tun. I do direct fire recirculating mashes, BTW. If I was doing this with a RIMS setup, I would be afraid of too much grain getting into the tube and adding off flavors, but maybe I am overthinking that. Third, I tried to use the sparge arm during recirculation, but because of the false bottom issue, it clogs badly and means I have to change over from an elbow and tube to the sparge arm. Kind of a pain, but is workable. BTW when the sparge arm clogs, the pressure from the pumps causes a spray that makes a mess and screws up the grain bed. Don't try this at home kids, as it makes a mess!

Cleaning the tank is a bit of a chore as well. I can't imagine going larger than this and being able to clean in a home setting. I generally scoop out the mash and give it to a friend for his chickens, then I spray it out with a garden hose outside to get it mostly clean. I set it aside and then after pitching I give it a good cleanup with bar keepers friend, dry thoroughly, and put away until the next brew day.

Are you seeing the same thing with the thermometer and false bottom with your setup?

Cheers!

Hi Stonebrewer. Hopefully I can shed a little insight on these issues for you.

1. Mash Tun temp gauge. I originally had the same issues as you, and this is what I've found. First, the gauges are not calibrated from the factory, so the first thing I did was to fill it with 150 degree water. I used 2 different lab thermometers to check the water temp near the thermowell and then adjusted the dial thermometer to the same temp. I was still having some issues with the readings even after this was done. It would read consistently at one temp, and then be off at another. I even tried a second dial as I have 2 others from the HLT and BK and still ran into this problem. After some experimentation, I realized that the thermometer needs to be completely immersed to get an accurate reading. If you stick it into the thermowell dry, only the tip will be touching the thermowell at the end, and it will work very poorly. What I ended up doing is packing the thermowell with heatsink compound so that there is no air space between the dial thermometer shaft and the thermowell walls all around. This has stabilized the temperature reading over a wider range and it is also quicker to react to small temperature changes. This being said, I find it still takes too long to react to large temperature changes such as going from mash temp to sparge. It can take several minutes (10!) for it to get to where it is actually at and stable. I am currently still checking things with my lab thermometer to make sure I'm not overshooting during sparging, but I have confidence now that it's telling me what's going on during the mash. In the end I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of these dial thermometers, and am debating switching to an RTD and electronic temp reader. The RTDs I'm using in the HLT and BK are spot on and react very fast to temp changes.

2. False bottom. I don't have the bottom outlet tank as mine was one of the earlier ones with a side outlet. The false bottom does have a gap around the edge, but I can't see how you could get a perfect fit and still be able to remove it for cleaning. Mine varies from touching the walls to as much as an 1/8 inch to maybe even 3/16ths in areas around the circumference. I am recirculating through a chugger pump through a herms coil, and although I do see an occasional piece of malt flow through my hoses, it is very minimal and have never had any issues with clogging even when I felt I may have been recirculating a little fast. Is it possible you are going too fast and the increased pressure is sucking to hard?? I'm a little conservative with my recirculation as I'm afraid of the grain bed compacting and getting a stuck sparge or too much channeling and low efficiency. I also found that there is a sweet spot for heat transfer in the HLT herms. Too fast and the wort doesn't pick up enough heat and hold temp in the MT, or to slow, and I get the same thing because the recirculation is to slow to hold the temp constant. When I'm recirculating, I now watch the temp out of the elbow and tube and adjust for just about 2 degrees below the hlt temp. This seems to be working quite well for me . I'm averaging about 80 to 85 % efficiency fly sparging over about an hour to 90 minutes and get a very clear wort. My expected final gravity readings are also pretty much spot on.

I have never used the sparge arm for recirculation because of the following issues which I believe to be correct. Letting the recurculated wort sprinkle down creates two issues I'd be concerned with.

1. As it sprinkles down, you are going to lose a lot of heat as it is going to cool as it travels through air. This would make you have to heat the HLT quite a few degrees higher in order to get the temp you want which will change the enzymatic action in the wort. You would have to take this into account or you would be mashing at a higher temp then you think you are.
2. As the wort sprinkles, you are subjecting a large surface area of hot wort to oxygen over time which could lead to off flavors (cardboard)and a shorter shelf life.
This is why I haven't used the sparge arm for recirculation. The fact that your arm is getting clogged over time because of grain getting through the false bottom I now realize is another issue. I'm not sure it was meant to be used in this fashion. It does suck having to change over during the mash. I have dropped a gasket and clamp a few times doing it and I don't like having to work over hot liquid. In an earlier post, I had mentioned that if I would do any thing different I wanted to have 2 inlets on the top of the Mash tun for another reason, but this just added another. With 2 inlets, one could have the sparge arm connected, and the other the elbow and tube for recirculation. No having to change over. Brilliant!

Yes, cleaning the mash tun is probably the worst part of the brew day, but it is what it is. I'm not sure I would constantly use Bar Keepers Friend" every time though. Doesn't it take a lot of rinsing ?? I just use a little PBW and a blue scrubby.

Hope this long winded reply helps.

 

[WroxBrew]

Thanks for the info. If I go that route, it will be with a upright freezer using my Kickstarter Fermostat (LINK) temperature controller once it arrives. That also means buying an upright freezer. The more I think about it, I may just get a larger chest freezer and skip the conical, especially considering I can make a bigger starter and reserve yeast from that for future batches.

Glad to hear your Citra is improving. Such a nice treat when that happens.

Thanks. I just got a fridge for my kegs for free, but is the wrong type for the fermenter. I hope to get a setup for the fermenter, but I have other basement issues I have to deal with to make it a good spot for fermenting and my kitchen is too small for a second Fridge.

 

[WroxBrew]

Oops! Sorry about 4. Thanks for the detailed response. Fur completeness:

4. Is tangential inlet for a whirlpool worthwhile, or just more cleanup?

I don't find that it adds anything to clean-up. The whirlpool actually works quite well if you have the patience. It adds time, which as we all know can be in short supply. I have run low on time on a few batches and wirlpooling is where I tend to make it up when things are behind schedule. When I do take the time to do it correctly, I do notice quite a bit more gunk being left behind in the BK. I was actually a bit surprised as I figured the heating element would limit it's effectiveness. As for how much it effects the finally product, I really couldn't say as I haven't done any real evaluation. I tend to ferment on the long side (3-4 weeks) so I get a good amount of settling of whatever makes it into the fermenter.

 

[jawsbc]

Third, I tried to use the sparge arm during recirculation

I recommend not using the sparge arm for recirculation - you risk hot side aeration. Using a 90 deg. hose barb and a short piece of hose to lay the wort gently on on top of the grain bed will minimize HSA. The husks and particles that initially sneak out will then be laid on top of the grain bed as well, and improve the grain bed overall for better sparging, etc. The sparge arm is best used for water/sparging.

Cheers!
John/Stout Tanks and Kettles

 

[stonebrewer]

Wrox & jawsbc: Thanks for the replies. I only used the the sparge arm once during recirculation as a test. Have not been using it since and have gone back to the tried and true short piece of silicon hose...just sharing my experiences with you/others. I also tried stuffing the thermowell with CPU grease to no avail. I have been using a Thermopen to check temps as the wort comes out of the silicon tube mentioned above. Really want to add something to the tun inlet to monitor temps so I a) don't have to take the lid off and b) can check constantly versus periodically. May end up automating this at some point, but want to stay manual for now. Brewer's Hardware has some parts that might work, so if I try them I will post back here the results.

Overall I am pleased as punch with the MLT. The welds and construction are top notch and I love the triclamp fittings. The bottom drain is AWESOME as I get every last drop of wort out of the tun and into the boil. I do not recirculate too rapidly, so not sure why I am getting grain under the false bottom...may be just unrealistic to think it will catch every little piece. I pump through a SS hop spider screen into the kettle and usually get a few teaspoons of grain in the screen. This method works well.

As for HSA, the jury is still out on that for me. I know it is widely debated and I am not going to start that up here or in any thread. I just don't know if it is real or not. Other comments about heat loss make sense though.

 

[orangehero]

You may also end up oxidizing proteins that can clog up the grain bed.

 

[RobotWerewolfLabs]

Stonebrewer, you might also look at your grain mill. Perhaps tweaking your crush could help with grain getting through?

 

[RobotWerewolfLabs]

Edit: oops, moving this to a new thread instead. Great system you have there!