Would such "Starter" work?

[user 214470]

I'm brewing a lager this Sunday (Oktoberfest). It's gonna be 13 gallon batch. I know lagers need more yeast than ales, but I only have 2 sachets of w-34/70. (normally I would need about 4-5 for this amount, so it's pretty expensive for the yeast..)

My plan is to do a "mega starter" two days in advance - I will make 4 gallons of 1.040 wort using malt extract and pitch 2 satchets of w-34/70 - let that ferment for 2 days in 60'F basement. Then, on Sunday I will brew 9 gallons (All-grain) of Oktoberfest and "pitch" the 4 gallon "mega starter".

(I took all this into consideration in my recipe - hops, mixing, gravity, etc.)

Any problems with my approach?

EDIT: I just finished boiling 4 gallons of wort from extract, placed in the basement to cool overnight.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I could be totally off base here, so don't put too much value on this. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

You COULD lose up to 50% of the cells in dry yeast by pitching right into wort. So therefore, by pitching 2 packets into your starter, you're really only pitching 1 pack worth of cells. Safale says the amount of viable cells in the pack is greater than 6 x 10^9 (so 6 billion cells). So if you assume you have 6B viable cells, a 4 gallon starter will get you 1842 B cells ON A STIR PLATE. For 13 gallons of 1.055 lager, Brew United's yeast calculator says you need 1002 B cells.

If you're not using a stir plate, your situation is much different...

However, pitching these two packs into the starter puts your inoculation rate at .5 and the above yeast calc suggests keeping this between 25 and 100, so you're really low. What this could do to the yeast, I don't know. I don't know if this will stress the yeast out or what...

The other thing is I would not pitch the whole 4 gallon starter. That will for sure affect the flavor of the final product, as that's 30% of your final volume. I would highly suggest giving yourself more time and chilling and decanting the starter so that you're just pitching the yeast slurry and not the starter wort.

Could you do it as you stated and have it work...? Yes, but I don't think you'll get the intended finished product.

My recommendation: rehydrate the two packs of yeast and pitch that into your beer instead of going the route of the starter. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Although, you're brewing 13 gallon batch.... That's a bit different than my 6 gallon batches I'm used to.... 2 packets rehydrated in 13 gallons isn't really good either. Unless you do a traditional starter and step it up a couple of times, I don't think you're going to have a good amount of cells for the fermentation.

Again, I don't know your answer for sure. Someone else will need to chime in and tell me I'm full of sh** or give you better options.

 

[user 214470]

Well, here's some clarification:

1. I won't just sprinkle the 2 packets on those 4 gallons of "starter", I will rehydrate first, aerate the 4 gallons well, then pitch the rehydrated yeast and let it ride for 48-60 hours, then pitch all that during high-krausen.

2. Unfortunately I don't have a stir plate, that's why I don't do it like normal people.. I don't know if it would help, but I could aerate those 4 gallons every 12 hours or so using aeration wand+drill, or would that be pointless?

3. I'm also doing this because I want to brew a bigger batch which my equipment doesn't allow (my mash tun and boil kettle maxes out at 10 gallons), so I took all the dilutions and IBU's into consideration in my recipe, to get the final 13 gallon (50 liter) volume.

4. I'm brewing 50 liter batch, because I have a barrel that size and where I live (North EU) the weather is currently suitable for lager, so I plan to place that barrel in the shed outside.

 

[user 214470]

Well, I ended up making 3 gallon 1.050 starter with 2 packets of rehydrated w-34/70, let that ferment for 50-60 hours before joining it with another 10 gallons 1.050 wort (58'F). I don't know if it's good or bad, but the whole 13 gallons started primary fermentation right away, like 10 minutes lag time at most, never seen anything like that...

 

[goldenknotslim]

drauflassen

 

[user 214470]

drauflassen

Wow, I pretty much did the Drauflassen without even knowing about it
I think one thing I did slightly wrong, was that my 3 gallon starter sat for 50 hours at which point the yeast have fallen to the bottom (I noticed the fermentation was most active about 24 hours after pitching the rehydrated yeast) - so that's a note for my future Drauflassen brews...

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I could be totally off base here, so don't put too much value on this. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

You COULD lose up to 50% of the cells in dry yeast by pitching right into wort.

This has all been proven wrong by Fermentis, and they're changing their instructions accordingly. Recent studies (by Fermentis) found that rehydrated yeast was only marginally (insignificantly so) more viable than direct pitched dry yeast. Rehydrated and shaken yeast suffered more than direct pitched. Again, this is only quite recent - don't rehydrate dry yeast.

 

[user 214470]

This has all been proven wrong by Fermentis, and they're changing their instructions accordingly. Recent studies (by Fermentis) found that rehydrated yeast was only marginally (insignificantly so) more viable than direct pitched dry yeast. Rehydrated and shaken yeast suffered more than direct pitched. Again, this is only quite recent - don't rehydrate dry yeast.

For real? I always thought it's always undoubtedly better to rehydrate any dry yeast, even if said "sprinkle on wort". If it's really true, sprinkling would be so much easier (also less chance of infection and accidental shock if rehydrated with too hot/cold water).
Do you have the source of that "proof by Fermentis"? I wonder what other yeast manufacturers think?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

https://fermentis.com/news-from-fermentis/technical-reviews/e2u-direct-pitching/

There's a thread somewhere on here as well, but I can't find it!

 

[kh54s10]

Probably too late now but I wouldn't do it because fermenting 4 gallons as a starter will make some iffy beer. You are then going to dilute your carefully crafted 9 gallon beer with nasty starter beer that was fermented in far less than ideal conditions.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The idea is based more on making a small batch of beer, then adding more of the same wort after 24hrs or so once the yeast is active. It's not really diluting the beer with a traditional starter (and definitely no stir plate - you wouldn't want all that oxidation in your beer). The OP said the ingredients in the starter would be considered in the overall beer, so it shouldn't hurt the final product.

 

[user 214470]

One thing I surely did wrong - I aerated the fermenting 3 gallon starter a couple times using aeration wand+drill (hoping more oxygen = more yeast), now I realize that oxidation might harm the beer... Well, live and learn..

And, Gnomebrewer - thanks for sharing that article from Fermentis, really great news, I'll use this practice from now on with Fermentis dry yeast (so much easier). I wonder if it's safe to use this practice with all other dry yeasts? Mangrove Jack's, Lallemand, Brewferm?