Wort Souring - Sach Delay?

[Christophrawr]

Hello!!

After incubating my lacto culture at 90F for 2 days in my primary I chilled to 65 and pitched my sacc. It's been 3 days and sure it's bubbling but slow and zero krausen.

Is this normal when pitching sacc into a low ph environment? My gut tells me yes. I didn't do a starter but compensated by over pitching.

RDWHAHB?

1 GALLON Berliner Weisse grain bill
1.035 OG
0 IBU
Pre acidified wort to 4.1
Pitched lacto and held at 90F 2 days
Pitched 10g of dried yeast (5g US04 5g Nottingham) (straight pitch)
Fermenting at 65F

Picture - the right carboy is the one in question. It's cloudy and looks like a regular fermentation but no krausen forming and sloooowly bubbling.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes, it's normal. Don't worry about it.

Next time I would recommend rehydration when adding dry yeast to sour wort.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

I also try to double my dry yeast pitch rate when going into low pH wort. Did you take a reading before pitching the yeast?

 

[Christophrawr]

I also try to double my dry yeast pitch rate when going into low pH wort. Did you take a reading before pitching the yeast?

With a 1 gallon batch I chose not to take a reading (and Im sure my ph meter isn't fully accurate anywho) but I did taste a few drops and it wasnt too sour. Heck that could have just been the pre acidification I tasted lol. I should have rehydrated the yeast - we'll see in a few more days if the sach takes off.

 

[isomerization]

Just realized you were working in a 1 gal batch, you pitched plenty of yeast! It must have been below pH 3.2, I’ve had yeast struggle that low before.

Keep in mind with that much residual sugar, you won’t taste much acid.

 

[Christophrawr]

Oohhhh that's good to know about the sugars over shadowing the sournerss!! Makes total sense.

 

[isomerization]

Oohhhh that's good to know about the sugars over shadowing the sournerss!! Makes total sense.

Look into Titratable Acidity (TA), it’s much more accurate for perceived acidity.

 

[Christophrawr]

We're getting close to a week since pitching the sacc and it's not budging. It looks very content in doing nothing. What are your recommendations to kick up it's fermentation? There's a healthy looking yeast cake just sleeping on the bottom. I've actually never had a stalled or stuck fermentation before so I need the Internet's help.

 

[isomerization]

We're getting close to a week since pitching the sacc and it's not budging. It looks very content in doing nothing. What are your recommendations to kick up it's fermentation? There's a healthy looking yeast cake just sleeping on the bottom. I've actually never had a stalled or stuck fermentation before so I need the Internet's help.

What’s the gravity at?

 

[Christophrawr]

What’s the gravity at?

Just took a sample. It has definitely fermented some as it's now at 1.025 (started at 1.035) and you were right about the acidity, ten points later and I can feel the puckering tartness there.

Sooo... make a starter and pitch it at high krausen?? I have half a pack of belle saison dry yeast Im thinking about trying. Never made a starter before but now's a good time to learn.

 

[Christophrawr]

I read either pitch more yeast, pitch champagne yeast, pitch brett to eat what's left. I'll transfer this onto the starter tonight and just go from there. Worst case I'll throw some bottle dregs and sit on it.

On another note - I wonder if I can take some slurry from the first carboy that stalled out and try to pitch it for the L Brevis in a new brew (along with new hydrated sacc yeast)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Can you increase it to 70°F ? That's what I would do. Rouse the yeast too.

 

[Christophrawr]

Can you increase it to 70°F ? That's what I would do. Rouse the yeast too.

I can definitely increase the heat and give it a swirl - I'll try that tonight and see if there's activity in the morning. By doing this will I see an active fermentation or will it be subtle?

Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I can definitely increase the heat and give it a swirl - I'll try that tonight and see if there's activity in the morning. By doing this will I see an active fermentation or will it be subtle?

Thanks!

Here's my experience.
I'm pretty patient with my sour beers. The soonest I've bottled is 16 days from brew day.
I rehydrate dry yeast. I either overpitch or add nutrient (the Lacto uses up some of the wort's nutrients). I ferment at a higher temperature than normal (e.g. 67-70°F with US-05), and let it warm up further toward the end of fermentation.

My pH typically ranges from 3.1 to 3.3. Despite that, my attenuation is always pretty good -- 77% AA on my most recent no-boil mashed @ 146°F.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Semi-related: I did a split-batch kettle sour (half soured, half not), and the soured version finished at 1.015, compared to 1.012 for the non-soured. IBUs similar for both batches. The acidity definitely has a detrimental effect on the yeast. Like @RPh_Guy said, rouse it, warm it up, and see what happens. Then maybe pitch more yeast.

Also, unclear from your post: did you boil to kill the lacto before you pitched S-04?

 

[Christophrawr]

Thanks RPh - This was my first go at souring so I appreciate having someones method to learn from for next attempt.

Mirthful I didn't do a kettle sour so negative to killing it. She's alive and well in the primary Its good to know you see some different results the ph can play on the attenuation.

 

[Christophrawr]

Update:
I took a refractometer reading and sensory sample today after bumping the heat up to 70 and rousing the yeast a few times each day for 2 days. Same reading and same exact taste/ scent/sweetness.

I have decided to pour some dregs with brett in so they can just finish the job. Guess my next sample will be in a couple months [emoji847]

 

[RPh_Guy]

Nice! You won't regret it.

But.. The 1.025, was that a refractometer reading? Want to make sure you know it doesn't provide an accurate reading with an alcoholic sample and therefore needs a conversion.

the soured version finished at 1.015, compared to 1.012 for the non-soured

Since Lacto converts some of the sugar to lactic acid (which is more dense than water), sour wort will always have a higher FG, even if attenuation is actually the same.

Cheers

 

[Christophrawr]

Nice! You won't regret it.

But.. The 1.025, was that a refractometer reading? Want to make sure you know it doesn't provide an accurate reading with an alcoholic sample and therefore needs a conversion.


Since Lacto converts some of the sugar to lactic acid (which is more dense than water), sour wort will always have a higher FG, even if attenuation is actually the same.

Cheers

Ah snap that's good to know about lactic acid affecting the gravity like that. And yeah I knew refractometers needed tweaking post OG but I was hoping (don't know if I was right to assume though) that for this purppse if the gravity was the same it confirmed a stuck fermentation.

Can't thank you enough!

Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

yeah I knew refractometers needed tweaking post OG but I was hoping (don't know if I was right to assume though) that for this purppse if the gravity was the same it confirmed a stuck fermentation.

Stable refractometer readings could also indicate that fermentation is simply finished.

Here's a good article:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2013/...rrectly-for-maximum-accuracy-in-home-brewing/

-Refractometer needs calibrated with pure water, at the temp of your samples.
-You need to determine the wort correction factor.
-You need to correct for presence of alcohol.
-I'm unsure how acid affects refraction so the results are still a little questionable for sour beer, unless maybe if you determine a separate sour wort correction factor.

I made some assumptions and it looked like only about 50% AA (FG ~1.017), so still problematic.

FWIW I only use a hydrometer. For 1 gal batches I typically pour the sample back.

Anyway, Brett will make a great beer. What dregs did you use?

 

[Christophrawr]

Stable refractometer readings could also indicate that fermentation is simply finished.

Here's a good article:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2013/...rrectly-for-maximum-accuracy-in-home-brewing/

-Refractometer needs calibrated with pure water, at the temp of your samples.
-You need to determine the wort correction factor.
-You need to correct for presence of alcohol.
-I'm unsure how acid affects refraction so the results are still a little questionable for sour beer, unless maybe if you determine a separate sour wort correction factor.

I made some assumptions and it looked like only about 50% AA (FG ~1.017), so still problematic.

FWIW I only use a hydrometer. For 1 gal batches I typically pour the sample back.

Anyway, Brett will make a great beer. What dregs did you use?

I really thought long and hard about what to do about small batch gravity reading. I did read a few posts about just dumping it back in and man that was my first choice and still sounds perfect. I am worried about contamination and more so oxidation which ultimately stopped me. Could you share how you return the sample?

So living in Quebec makes it really hard to have fantastic bottles on hand. I need to cross the border to Vermont where I stock up occasionally. I drank my last Hill Farmstead Florence couple weeks ago (womp womp) So I'll be grabbing a couple cans of a brett saison here that I really enjoy, lots of citrusy and pineapple notes from their brett strain. After all your help wish I could share the end result [emoji4]

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am worried about contamination and more so oxidation which ultimately stopped me. Could you share how you return the sample?

I've brewed a fair number of 1 gal batches, mostly before my cleaning and sanitation processes were optimal.

With small batch beers I typically only take one FG reading -- after 2-3 weeks at bottling time. My fermentation methods (described above) ensure it's totally attenuated by that time. Maybe 3-4 weeks for a Lacto sour.
I know others here on the forum use this same process.

I use my auto siphon to pump some beer into my hydrometer tube before I transfer the remaining beer onto my priming sugar. After I take the hydrometer reading I simply pour the sample into the primed beer before bottling.

Oxygen is a huge concern. For this reason I don't open the fermenter at all between the day I switch from blow-off tube to airlock and bottling day.
Using a refractometer IMO does not help since oxygen still gets into the headspace when you open to take a sample, unless you have a ported fermenter.

Monitoring a Brett fermentation is another story entirely. I think using a refractometer along with a ported fermenter would be a great idea. Most people making mixed fermentation sours aren't doing 1 gal batches though; the wait is way too long for such a small number of bottles.
That said, I do have 1 gal of mead and some 1 gal cider batches fermenting with Brett and other wild stuff. I won't be opening those for probably 9 months .. and when I do I'll make sure they're topped up.

Hope this helps.