Worst Hangover EVER after TWO beers - WHY??? (Founders Brewing Company)

[doodlebug]

I have loved me some Founders Brewing Company beer for a long time - and have been a mug club member there since 2004. A few years ago they moved into the new location and have increased production about 1000%. Many of you across the country are now able to get your hands on some favorites like Kentucky Breakfast Stout, Reds Rye, Dirty Bastard and Centennial IPA. The problem is, since this move I am unable to enjoy *any* beer without paying a significant price the next day. I had the same experience with New Holland when they upped their production. In the case of New Holland, a single beer would give me crushing, oppressive headaches. With Founders, and I've joked about this, but I literally feel (as I'm typing this) like what I imagine chemotherapy feels like. My body and stomach are tight, almost feverish and achy, and it feels like my cells are vibrating.

I am not alone on this one. We went down last night to see some excellent bands (Holy Ghost Tent Revival from NC and Chip Fundy from MI) and I had two beers - a Hop Mountain Brown and a Harvest Ale. A friend had 3 - Hop Brown and two IPA's and my lovely wife had a single 8 oz pour of Backwoods Bastard (Dirty Bastard Scotch Ale aged in American Oak bourbon barrels, 10.2% ABV). We all feel like ****. And like I said, it happens pretty much every time I go down there. Why do I still go? Well ... have you tasted some of these beers??

Still, I think I've reached the end of the line. My question is - what are they doing wrong? I don't often buy their beer bottled, so I can't tell if the problem lies in the serving lines or the beer in general. All of the beers seem to have the same effect on me, so it isn't just a bad batch issue. What could it possibly be? Is it possible for a certain yeast strain to just disagree with a person? Could it be something like improper cleaning procedures where some caustic is getting into the beer? Are they trying to push out too much beer by bumping up the fermentation temps and thereby creating some unwanted byproducts?

Really curious...and sad that it seems to be the end of a long relationship.

Anyone?

 

[devilishprune]

I was going to suggest comparing them to the bottles. The only thing I can think of is some dirty lines, but I would suspect that at a brewery they would know about line cleanliness?

Do they even use the same yeast strain on all the beers?

I had a bottle of backwood's bastard last night and I feel fine right now (no cell vibration that I can notice).

 

[doodlebug]

I don't think that it's the yeast in this case, because I doubt they've changed yeasts in the past years, and it used to be okay. I was sort of just wondering that as a general question though.

The change coincided with the move to much larger tanks, so I'm kind of wondering what might be going on there.

 

[sleepystevenson]

I have noticed this problem at a few local establishments - not breweries, but bars. I FIRMLY believe it is the length and cleanliness of the beer lines that cause this. There is a local bar in my area that has great blues bands on mondays as well as a small but nice selection of craft brews on draft (had Dogfish Punkin, Penn Oktoberfest, Victory Hopdevil last time I was there.) Last time I was foolish enough to drink drafts there, I had TWO beers over the course of a couple hours (the punkin and Penn) and woke up with a headache that felt like I had had a DOZEN. I was discussing this problem with a fellow who works there and he told me that the kegs were in a cooler that is at least 50' away from the tap.....
So.... calculating that out....3/8" x 50' = 66 cubic inches of beer = 36.57 ounces.... .OUCH...More than 2 pints would have to be poured before you even got a drop of beer from the keg instead of the line. Now I know why the drafts always taste "off" there... Now this place doesn't exactly have a lot of craft beer drinkers for blues night. I recon I was the first to have the Punkin that night.... of which ALL of my pint came from the beer that had been sitting in the line for who knows how long. This same problem has been experienced by MULTIPLE beer drinking buddies there. Now I just drink bottles. Which sucks cause they don't have any craft beer in bottles except Sam Adams Boston Lager and Penn Pilsner and Penn Dark. AND it is more expensive.....but at least I don't get that sledge-to-head the next morning.

I (and some friends) also used to have this same problem at another (now closed) local beer bar. Their lines ran up from the basement and were also LONG. It was so tough to go there. 15-20 craft taps, but have more than 2 and lookout!

I know what my 1.5' dispensing lines / cobra tap look like on my kegs after a relatively short time.....makes me shiver to think about 50'...

Now, in your situation, I would think that a brewery, especially one as good as Founders would have this dispensing thing figured out. So, don't know if this is much help to you, but at least you aren't alone!

Then again....maybe we're just gettin' old....

 

[sleepystevenson]

Another bit of info -

Went to my "regular" bar where I meet friends on Thursday evenings last night. Great draft selection - DFH 60 min, Penn's new Allegheny Pale Ale, Great Lakes Octoberfest. We all had well OVER a pitcher for each of us.... and no problem or hangover at all this morning. This place's set up is standard commercial beer coolers with the draft towers, where the kegs sit immediately below the taps in the cooler. The lines gotta be 2-3 foot max.

Damn I love that place. Good people, great food, and cheap ($8!!!) pitchers of good craft beer that doesn't give you a hangover even if you have enough to know you've been drinking all night....:rockin:

 

[Reno_eNVy]

This question may not pertain to the topic (my pre-coffee brain thought process) but did the move by any chance move it up a significant elevation? I ask because in the Great Basin / Sierra Nevada's area there is huge variation in elevation. When SWMBO and I travel to her hometown in Nevada County, CA, it's impossible to get even buzzed due to an elevation of 1500ft. But upon returning to our house in Reno (5300ft) our acclimatized bodies cause us to get quite toasty after just a couple beers.

Just a thought; figure I'd try to introduce another possibility.

 

[knelson]

Like others have stated, most likely its the lines. A good friend works for distributor and they are very cautious about making sure their accounts clean their lines regularly. You would be surprised the stories I hear about checking the lines and having "Sludge" come out of them...if they dont have a Glycol system running along their lines then most likely the beer is sitting warm in the line rotting. Some places think that because their kegs are kept in a cooler that they do not need the Glycol. Well what about the 50' of beer line that is not in the cooler.

A little off topic, we have a dive bar by my work that we frequent for happy hour. They pour nothing but Miller Lite and Coors on tap, but they clean their lines EVERY SINGLE DAY. It is amazing how good a cold Miller Lite tastes from a freshly cleaned line.

New Belgium is notorious for enforcing clean lines. They have the "Beer Rangers" whose sole job it is to travel the country and make sure that any bar/rest that serves their beer has clean lines. If not, they will pull their beer from that establishment...

 

[Flomaster]

I think I found my new job..

Beer Ranger... I like the sound of that

-=Jason=-

 

[bigc3031]

I was under the impression that hangovers were caused by dehydration and or sulfites. Is it possible the beers you chose where high in sulfites?

 

[lamarguy]

I tasted Founders' beers at the GABF and several of them had strong fusels. So strong that I dumped them immediately.

Fusel alcohols have been known to contribute to hangovers. This may be what you are experiencing.

Not sure if the fusel alcohol fault is related to the brewery move but I've had Founders in the past and was always impressed. Though, they'd have to pay me to drink the poor quality beer served at GABF.

 

[doodlebug]

I tasted Founders' beers at the GABF and several of them had strong fusels. So strong that I dumped them immediately.

Fusel alcohols have been known to contribute to hangovers. This may be what you are experiencing.

Not sure if the fusel alcohol fault is related to the brewery move but I've had Founders in the past and was always impressed. Though, they'd have to pay me to drink the poor quality beer served at GABF.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at - and a quick search turned up the fact that fusels are produced when fermentation occurs at higher temperatures. Perhaps due to an increase in demand and trying to push beer out too fast? It does seem like a likely culprit. I'm going to buy a sixer next week in the bottle and see if it has any similar effect. Hopefully it does not, or I'll be working from home the next day again ...

 

[doodlebug]

This question may not pertain to the topic (my pre-coffee brain thought process) but did the move by any chance move it up a significant elevation? I ask because in the Great Basin / Sierra Nevada's area there is huge variation in elevation. When SWMBO and I travel to her hometown in Nevada County, CA, it's impossible to get even buzzed due to an elevation of 1500ft. But upon returning to our house in Reno (5300ft) our acclimatized bodies cause us to get quite toasty after just a couple beers.

Just a thought; figure I'd try to introduce another possibility.

Thanks for the thought! But we're in Grand Rapids MI, about 500' above sea level. The move did situate the brewery and taproom at a higher elevation, albeit probably more along the lines of 15'-20'.

 

[MattCA]

Maybe try drinking water before and after? Maybe even during. I believe headaches caused by alcohol is because the alcohol dehydrates you somewhat causing your brain to shrink and pull on the membranes attached to your skull.

 

[payton34]

go to shmohz or the hideout and see if their beer has the same effects.

 

[bgburdman9]

I have been to founders a few times and followed each trip up with a trip to hopcat down the street. I have had several beers at each bar every time and have actually felt fine. Nothing more than slight dehydration headache which should be expected.

 

[ghack]

I think I need some sort of large grant to do a proper study of the beer line issue....

Personally, I am convinced that dirty lines contribute to hangovers, not to mention off flavors.

Also left out of the discussion is YOU. Your tolerance for alcohol is going to vary a lot based on your general condition. If you are tired or stressed, the effects will be magnified. Fighting a cold or allergy, same thing. Also, medications really do have an impact. And then there are some days where it will just hit you harder.

And a free piece of advice; do not get drunk on heavy Belgian beers, many do have fusels from higher fermentation temperatures. Worst hangover of my life was from a long night of Chimay drinking.

 

[doodlebug]

go to shmohz or the hideout and see if their beer has the same effects.

Ugh. Schmohz is just about the worst atmosphere ever, and I have never had a good beer at the Hideout.

 

[doodlebug]

Maybe try drinking water before and after? Maybe even during. I believe headaches caused by alcohol is because the alcohol dehydrates you somewhat causing your brain to shrink and pull on the membranes attached to your skull.

Not sure about that science, but I drank 3 pints of water and 2 pints of beer on this night at Founders ... not a dehydration issue.

 

[MaynardX]

I think if its a fusel alcohol issue, you would be able to taste it in the beer. If your a loyal fan of Founders or any estableshment, you should be able to know a flavor change that it would cause. Also, its hard for me to believe that bad lines would be the cause either. I would think it might give you the poops, but headaches? Maybe they are stemming from another ailment?

 

[Hermit]

I tasted Founders' beers at the GABF and several of them had strong fusels. So strong that I dumped them immediately.

Fusel alcohols have been known to contribute to hangovers. This may be what you are experiencing.

Not sure if the fusel alcohol fault is related to the brewery move but I've had Founders in the past and was always impressed. Though, they'd have to pay me to drink the poor quality beer served at GABF.

Perhaps they don't take the proper temp readings in the new fermentation tanks? The center can get much warmer than the outside if they are using coolers and only chilling the out portion of the tank. Last time I had a Rochfort 10 I was 'out of sorts' all the next day. After reading BLAM and how hot and fast they push the fermentation on some of these Belgians I began to wonder about that....

 

[Flomaster]

question has the issue been brought up to management of said establishment? perhaps they need to be made aware of the issue.

-=Jason=-

 

[Pabst Blue Robot]

The dirty beer lines is an interesting hypothesis, but I've had beer from lines presumably dirty enough to affect the taste of the beer without any adverse effects other than the taste. Did the beer taste off to you? Was it foamier than normal during the pour?

My suspicions fall towards two areas which are known to cause headaches and could easily be caused by a shift in production: Fusel alcohols and water chemistry.

Fusel seems likely as the shift to a larger production system could result in higher fermentation temps and/or improper yeast pitching rate or poor yeast health. Both of these conditions are known headache culprits, but typically can be detected in the taste of the beer in significant quantity. (tastes hot, like the smell of fuel or chemicals)

As for water chemistry, if their production brewery has changed water supplies, they may be attempting to modify the chemistry of the water to better suit their beers, and if that includes "burtonizing" the water, the salt additions may be the culprit. English style beers with Burton style water chemistry are heavier in minerals that compound dehydration and could also be a headache factor. My 2¢.

EDIT: After re-reading the OP, I noticed that the headache onset was instant, even while still drinking the beer. My only consistent experience that that situation was a definite result of fusel alcohol. One of my early beers was a Hefeweizen in a keg that suffered a stint in 85 degree F ambient temps for about a week. The beer was fine prior to the storage, and afterwards would inflict a log splitting headache even after the first few sips. The heavy banana helped mask the flavor of the fusels, but there certainly was a medicinal flavor present. This is a beer that I wouldn't have drank in high school. You simply could not enjoy the buzz without paying the piper.

 

[Zamial]

I think the OP is spoiled on HB beers NOT giving as severe of a hangover because they are unfiltered (in most cases). This results in a massive vitamin intake. Perhaps they moved to a force carb set up vs. bottle conditioned beers...(100% my speculation)

I can, from time to time, have 1 or 2 pints (even bottles) of commercial beers and feel like I was run over by a logging truck on the freeway...on the flip side I can sometimes drink 3-5 pitchers of commercial beers and feel "not as bad as expected" in the am. This is what I call "the beer god's karma"...BTW none of this is limited to a particular brand of beer and this even happens to my BMC drinking friends.



I, during Oktoberfest, had my 1st Founder's Breakfast stouts. I have also tracked down a few more 4 packs. This brew has inspired me to make my own version of "Breakfast Stout"...still in the planning stages...I think it is a FANTASTIC brew!

 

[Homercidal]

I haven't had a problem with Founders beer. I had a harvest ale 2 days ago, along with a couple of other beers that day and def did not notice any ill effects, even after NOT drinking water.

I haven't been to the taproom in a long time, but I do plan on going. As always.

And I thought the whole reason to expand was to NOT have to rush the brewing process...

 

[jessup]

Personally, I am convinced that dirty lines contribute to hangovers, not to mention off flavors.

i do enough water sampling to know that compounds leach out of ALL plastics. teflon is the only thing that won't leach nasties into solution. i'll buy into your hypothesis. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/compound-leaching-plastic-pvc-equipment-151280/

i don't have any temperature control for fermentation and have wild swings in fermenting temperatures. some batches have gone 90* so i know fusel alcohols well. while i get off flavors from a batch here and there, i never have crazy symptoms or headaches like the OP has pointed out.

i'm leaning toward the beer sitting in the lines, possibly leaching nasties, then being poured tasting no different that any other beer.

 

[ddemaagd]

I go there with friends almost weekly and have never had an issue with hangovers the next day. I usually drink the breakfast stout, harvest ale, or Red's Rye.

 

[FounderQC]

Hello,
I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions I have been reading here.

1. Founders has the cleanest draft lines of any bar/restaurant I have ever been to. We constantly keep our lines clean from anything that could contaminate our beer. On top of this our mirco lab tests these lines to make sure that every pour you get is nothing but clean fresh fantastic beer.
2. The cause of most hangovers is actually related more to dehydration than any other factor. Beer at Founders tends to run a much higher ABV than your macro beers. One of the best ways you can prevent a hangover is to take the time or drink some water throughout the night. And finish your night with a glass or two of water before bed.
The Science behind the classic headache is actually a dehydrated body will take water from the brain. This results in a very small amount of shrinking of your brain. The lining around brains is both connected to the brain and the scull. This little bit of shrinking stresses the lining and results in the pain we all get after a good night.

Stay hydrated and enjoy some nice cold water after drinking.

 

[lamarguy]

I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions I have been reading here.

There are studies linking increased "hangover effects" to fusel alcohols. Dehydration probably is the single largest factor but certainly not the sole factor for a bad hangover.

Would you mind explaining the strong fusels I and others tasted in several of your beers at the 2010 GABF?

 

[kellynm]

This is a beer that I wouldn't have drank in high school.

In high school... I would have drank the hell outta it! :cross:

 

[jessup]

not founders related but, i thought i would add this experience to the thread.

the other day my fiance and I went to the Tower Theatre in Philly. we both had 1 of the same beer, Yards Pale Ale, and an hour later became ill after drinking the beer. we started with vomiting and it escalated from there. my digestive tract is still sick but i am feeling much better two days later and am beginning to eat again. i asked the staff if they ever clean their beer lines and they had no idea what i was talking about. i believe now that dirty beer lines can and will get you sick. i wouldn't wish food poisoning on anyone, it was disgusting and miserable.