Witbier or just Wheat beer?

[okiedog]

I love the creative latitude that homebrewers and craft brewers have, and the variations of brews they can create. But sometimes I am surprised at how far some can deviate from a classic style and still call it that style of beer. Am I splitting hairs, or just being a traditionalist? For instance, what constitutes a Witbier? Pils malt, unmalted wheat and oats, Curacao orange peel and crushed coriander seed. That's my opinion of what this style is. A handful of other spices may be acceptable in small quantities, and used with the requisite ingredients listed above, to add a subtle background flavor: chamomile, grains of paradise, nutmeg, ginger, peppercorns.

I have seen some recipes called Witbier that use only Pils or pale malt and malted wheat in the grist. Malted wheat has a different flavor than flaked or unmalted wheat. Raw, unmalted wheat and oats may be hard to find, and flaked wheat and oats are possibly the best substitutes. Sweet orange peel is no substitute for Curacao orange peel, also known as bitter orange peel. It adds a completely different flavor. When done right, using traditional ingredients, Witbier can be a very quaffable, refreshing brew.

I welcome your comments of agreement, disagreement or otherwise.

 

[dmtaylor]

If I can plainly pick out any herb or spice besides coriander in a witbier, it's too much. And the coriander should be in the background. Beyond that, do whatever you like. As long as it's hazy, got some wheat in there, and tastes a little like coriander, it's good.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

If you think it tastes good, brew it and drink it! It's as simple as that. Call it whatever you like. The only time you need to watch style, is if you are entering it into a competition where it will be judged against some set of guidelines.

Some styles are very close. An example would be a Kolsch vs. a [generic] German lager. In most cases the only difference is the yeast used and the temp that its fermented and aged at. The grain bills can, and sometimes are, identical.

Without getting real technical... The differences in wit's and wheats (by historical definition), is simply Wit's originated in Belgium. Wheat's originated in Germany. Each of those can be broken down into further specific styles. The yeasts are different and have a definite difference in ester and phenolic profiles. Typically, wit's used citrus zest and coriander but more recently, both can have just about anything in them and any augmentation imaginable. If you use something like WLP300, call it a wheat or heffy. If you use something like WY3944, feel free to call it a wit. Or, make up your own name

 

[kbaggen]

I done some brew just psilner malt + wheat flour! Been rather good.........and my info is Wit from Belgium hold a lot of wheat flour! So I fllu y support you statment it is possible to make nice beers from other source of stach than just pure commen gains!

See here!
http://posebryg.bagge-nielsen.dk/2016/10/06/the-summer-hefewifzen/

 

[specharka]

I love the creative latitude that homebrewers and craft brewers have, and the variations of brews they can create. But sometimes I am surprised at how far some can deviate from a classic style and still call it that style of beer. Am I splitting hairs, or just being a traditionalist? For instance, what constitutes a Witbier? Pils malt, unmalted wheat and oats, Curacao orange peel and crushed coriander seed. That's my opinion of what this style is. A handful of other spices may be acceptable in small quantities, and used with the requisite ingredients listed above, to add a subtle background flavor: chamomile, grains of paradise, nutmeg, ginger, peppercorns.

I have seen some recipes called Witbier that use only Pils or pale malt and malted wheat in the grist. Malted wheat has a different flavor than flaked or unmalted wheat. Raw, unmalted wheat and oats may be hard to find, and flaked wheat and oats are possibly the best substitutes. Sweet orange peel is no substitute for Curacao orange peel, also known as bitter orange peel. It adds a completely different flavor. When done right, using traditional ingredients, Witbier can be a very quaffable, refreshing brew.

I welcome your comments of agreement, disagreement or otherwise.

I love Belgian Wit. I’ve made quite a few of them, and tasted even more. The best Witbier I’ve ever had, Allagash White, uses a pale malt blend, oats, Carapils, malted wheat, and unmalted wheat in the grist. I don’t think there’s a continental Witbier that comes close (though Avery White Rascal is quite delectable too).

I don’t really care what the recipe guidelines consist of — good beer trumps tradition. I’d be happy to share my own recipe if there’s interest.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

The best Witbier I’ve ever had, Allagash White

I have to agree, its very tasty. And their yeast/dregs harvest and culture very easily! I've used it many times for my wit's and wheats.

 

[okiedog]

dmtaylor, I mostly agree with you. It sounds like you at least partially share my views. Any additional spice flavor sort of detracts from the clean flavors of the style. I do not add any of the other spices in my witbiers. Also coriander and bitter orange peel should both be used with some restraint, IMHO. Having said that, I must admit that I have detected a cinnamon like background character in some Hoegaarden. Whether this is from a spice addition or from the brewing process, I don't know. It is known that some Belgian brewers do add very small amounts of one or more "additional" spices, to enhance the background flavors without them being individually detectable.

 

[okiedog]

I'm not being a "purist". If I were, I would not use flaked wheat and oats. Of course I would like to try and get some raw, unmalted wheat and oats to make a witbier to get an idea what the original Flemish witbiers were like.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I prefer Veatbiere.
50% wheat malt, 50% pale malt. Balanced bitterness. Modest hop flavor/aroma, usually European hops. Light yeast esters. Some variants are sour. Can be hazy or clear.

 

[okiedog]

I love Belgian Wit. I’ve made quite a few of them, and tasted even more. The best Witbier I’ve ever had, Allagash White, uses a pale malt blend, oats, Carapils, malted wheat, and unmalted wheat in the grist. I don’t think there’s a continental Witbier that comes close (though Avery White Rascal is quite delectable too).

I don’t really care what the recipe guidelines consist of — good beer trumps tradition. I’d be happy to share my own recipe if there’s interest.

I'm always open to a good recipe.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Good and simple:

40% German or Belgian pilsner malt (I prefer Weyermann)
60% wheat malt (I prefer Great Western. big kernels. no need to adjust your mill)
Mash at 154 for an hour. You can do a protein rest and/or ferulic acid rest if it makes you feel better.
Shoot for about 1.050-1.052 OG
Boil it for an hour
17 IBU of Saaz, Sterling, or Spalt at 60 minutes
Chuck in some WY3068, WLP300 or dregs from a couple bottles of Allegash White
Ferment it at 70F to 72F (probably be done in 5 to 7 days)
Keg it, make it fizzy, drink it fresh

If you want to add some orange zest and coriander, go for it. In moderation. Dont let them stomp out the yeast flavors.

If you want to toss in some oats. Totally fine. Wont hurt a thing

If you are worried about head, go with about 5% carapils or carafoam. I've tried it both ways and can't tell the difference

 

[specharka]

Good and simple:

40% German or Belgian pilsner malt (I prefer Weyermann)
60% wheat malt (I prefer Great Western. big kernels. no need to adjust your mill)
Mash at 154 for an hour. You can do a protein rest and/or ferulic acid rest if it makes you feel better.
Shoot for about 1.050-1.052 OG
Boil it for an hour
17 IBU of Saaz, Sterling, or Spalt at 60 minutes
Chuck in some WY3068, WLP300 or dregs from a couple bottles of Allegash White
Ferment it at 70F to 72F (probably be done in 5 to 7 days)
Keg it, make it fizzy, drink it fresh

If you want to add some orange zest and coriander, go for it. In moderation. Dont let them stomp out the yeast flavors.

If you want to toss in some oats. Totally fine. Wont hurt a thing

If you are worried about head, go with about 5% carapils or carafoam. I've tried it both ways and can't tell the difference

WY3068 / WLP300 is the Weihenstephan Weizen strain, not Witbier. The yeast flavors you get from that are gonna be vastly different.

 

[specharka]

I'm always open to a good recipe.

Sure thing.

1.049 OG, 1.010 FG, 18 IBU, 3.3 SRM

50% Continental Pilsner
25% Red Wheat malt
15% Unmalted/flaked Wheat
7% Flaked Oats
3% Briess Cara-Pils

20 min @ 125F
60 min @ 154F
10 min @ 168F

16 IBU German Tradition (or any noble hop) @ 60 min
2 IBU Czech Saaz @ FO

0.1 oz/gal crushed coriander @ 15 min whirlpool (160F)
0.1 oz/gal Curaçao orange peel @ 15 min whirlpool (160F)

WY3944 / WLP400, 0.75 M/mL-P @ 65-67F for 2 days, free rise to 70-72F and hold until attenuated (10-12 days)

 

[okiedog]

Sure thing.

1.049 OG, 1.010 FG, 18 IBU, 3.3 SRM

50% Continental Pilsner
25% Red Wheat malt
15% Unmalted/flaked Wheat
7% Flaked Oats
3% Briess Cara-Pils

20 min @ 125F
60 min @ 154F
10 min @ 168F

16 IBU German Tradition (or any noble hop) @ 60 min
2 IBU Czech Saaz @ FO

0.1 oz/gal crushed coriander @ 15 min whirlpool (160F)
0.1 oz/gal Curaçao orange peel @ 15 min whirlpool (160F)

WY3944 / WLP400, 0.75 M/mL-P @ 65-67F for 2 days, free rise to 70-72F and hold until attenuated (10-12 days)

Thanks. I'll have to try this recipe. Though not exactly what I call a Witbier, it looks like a tasty brew. I have not tried red wheat malt in a brew, but some brewers seem to prefer it to white wheat.
Thanks for the recipe.

 

[okiedog]

Thanks for all the comments! Now what I'm thinking is that I really want to brew two Witbiers for comparison: one with raw white wheat and one with raw red wheat. For now though, I am focused on seasonals. I have never brewed with raw wheat, but I'd like to know how it differs from flaked wheat. If I like it, I might never go back to flaked wheat for my Witbiers.

 

[okiedog]

Good and simple:

40% German or Belgian pilsner malt (I prefer Weyermann)
60% wheat malt (I prefer Great Western. big kernels. no need to adjust your mill)
Mash at 154 for an hour. You can do a protein rest and/or ferulic acid rest if it makes you feel better.
Shoot for about 1.050-1.052 OG
Boil it for an hour
17 IBU of Saaz, Sterling, or Spalt at 60 minutes
Chuck in some WY3068, WLP300 or dregs from a couple bottles of Allegash White
Ferment it at 70F to 72F (probably be done in 5 to 7 days)
Keg it, make it fizzy, drink it fresh

If you want to add some orange zest and coriander, go for it. In moderation. Dont let them stomp out the yeast flavors.

If you want to toss in some oats. Totally fine. Wont hurt a thing

If you are worried about head, go with about 5% carapils or carafoam. I've tried it both ways and can't tell the difference

Sorry, but somehow I missed you recipe. With the 60 pils/40 wheat and 3068 yeast, it looks like a good hefe. Thanks

 

[specharka]

Thanks for all the comments! Now what I'm thinking is that I really want to brew two Witbiers for comparison: one with raw white wheat and one with raw red wheat. For now though, I am focused on seasonals. I have never brewed with raw wheat, but I'd like to know how it differs from flaked wheat. If I like it, I might never go back to flaked wheat for my Witbiers.

It’s really difficult to get conversion and extraction of the starches in raw wheat — which is why pre-gelatinized wheat flakes are so much easier to work with. It’s no wonder why most commercial breweries use malted vice raw wheat.

I’m able to achieve 75% brew house efficiency when I make lambic (65% Pils / 35% raw wheat), but that’s with a 2-hour turbid mash schedule followed by lautering with 190F water. If you’re looking to use a high proportion of raw wheat, be prepared for employing an extended protein rest (or multiple rests in the 113-131F range), lower extraction efficiency, and a slower sparge. If you try doing a single infusion mash, you’re gonna have a bad time.

Good luck, and let us know how the experiment goes.

 

[okiedog]

specharka, that is the main thing I have been concerned with - conversion of the unmalted grains. Of course, the starches must first be gelatinized, but I should be able include that in the mash schedule. Do you gelatinize your raw wheat before your protein rests? Wheat starts to gelatinize about 122F and oats around 132F, so that should be doable. A rest of about 30-45 minutes above 132F should do the trick for both. Maybe it takes longer? Anyway, it is fairly easy to tell when a grain has been gelatinized.

 

[specharka]

Gelatinization isn’t the difficult part, it’s extraction and conversion. There are a ton of gummy beta glucans in raw wheat and oat groats that prevent the starch matrix from being “seen” by amylase enzymes. My lambic turbid mash uses 30-minute rests at 113F and 137F to maximize the solubility of the wort. A key to improved extraction efficiency is milling raw grains extremely fine and adding 5-10% of their gross weight in rice hulls to make up the difference. You can employ a BIAB method and omit the rice hulls, but the protein rest will still help tremendously.

 

[mashpaddled]

Most witbiers are derivative of Hoegaarden in the pale/pils malt, oats, wheat, sour orange peel and coriander recipe. Witbier is just a broad class of Belgian white beers. Not all of them are spiced. They can be spiced with a a wider range of spices. Some are sour. Most are not. Historically white beers were just extremely pale beers and brewed across most, if not all, of brewing Europe. They are not necessarily wheat beers. However, modern witbier is pretty much always derivative of Hooegaarden, maybe with a different spice blend.

Brewing for competition means adhering to the competition guidelines; brewing for any other purpose just requires the beer satisfies what you want to drink.

 

[okiedog]

My understanding is that witbier originated in the Flemish region. The brewers used the grain that was grown in the local fields, mainly barley, wheat and oats. I'm sure there must have been variations, though. Anyone can brew a beer with whatever they like, and you are right that if it is good beer and is what you want, or like to drink, who cares. Taxonomy does not dictate taste or satisfaction.

 

[okiedog]

Gelatinization isn’t the difficult part, it’s extraction and conversion. There are a ton of gummy beta glucans in raw wheat and oat groats that prevent the starch matrix from being “seen” by amylase enzymes. My lambic turbid mash uses 30-minute rests at 113F and 137F to maximize the solubility of the wort. A key to improved extraction efficiency is milling raw grains extremely fine and adding 5-10% of their gross weight in rice hulls to make up the difference. You can employ a BIAB method and omit the rice hulls, but the protein rest will still help tremendously.

I'll have to take that (beta glucans) into consideration. Thanks.

 

[Cider123]

I haven't posted here in quite a while but I'm still brewing.

Recently I have been working through a recipe in my head that would have the haziness of a wit but a more neutral yeast flavor. I am looking for a yeast to add to a 50/50 pilsner/wheat brew that will look like a wit/hefe but not produce the esters. Yeasts that I have used on more american wheats turn out too clear.

Maybe just use something like 3944 but ferment on the cold side of the range?

 

[okiedog]

You might like this: http://www.wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/bavarian-wheat-blend

 

[Cider123]

You might like this: http://www.wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/bavarian-wheat-blend

Wow, don't know how I missed that one. That looks perfect, thanks. I'll report back after using it.

 

[okiedog]

It has been a while since there was any activity on this post, but I wanted to share my thoughts since I'm thinking about Witbier now. For some time now, (2-3 years) I have thought about brewing a Belgian style Witbier using unmalted wheat and oats. Since my last post, I did just that. The result is now in the keg. Though I modified the recipe a bit to make it a bit more "seasonal" by adding honey and more spices in the keg, the basic beer seemed to turn out good. I'll post after we taste the finished beer, and then sometime after the holidays, I'll brew this again without the holiday flavoring additions.

 

[Lefou]

I'm not being a "purist". If I were, I would not use flaked wheat and oats. Of course I would like to try and get some raw, unmalted wheat and oats to make a witbier to get an idea what the original Flemish witbiers were like.

The unmalted wheat and oats might be as close as the grocery shelf or your own cupboard. Cooked and mashed, or whatever.
I know for a fact my wife keeps a sack of flour and a bag of red winter wheat berries that she soaks and sprouts once in a while for a cat snack. My avatar Le Poo will munch on wheat sprouts when he's bored. I wouldn't be beyond snatching a bit for a small test batch just to try it out.

 

[okiedog]

Lefou, I've always wanted to try the unmalted grains for a Witbier, but had just never taken the time to do so. Everyone seems to think that a cereal mash is necessary, taking about a third of the base malt to convert the unmalted grains separately. But I always wondered why unmalted grains, if gelatinized, couldn't be converted in the main mash. So I gelatinized them by boiling, and combined them with the main mash to bring it to about 131F for 20 min., then 149F for 60 min., and 168F 10 min. mash out. My end result was that I had good conversion without a cereal mash. That beer is in the keg now, and soon I will be sampling it. I'm hoping for a little different, perhaps fresher flavor. I'll post the results after a few people (myself included) have sampled a pint or two.

 

[okiedog]

The unmalted wheat and oats might be as close as the grocery shelf or your own cupboard. Cooked and mashed, or whatever.
I know for a fact my wife keeps a sack of flour and a bag of red winter wheat berries that she soaks and sprouts once in a while for a cat snack. My avatar Le Poo will munch on wheat sprouts when he's bored. I wouldn't be beyond snatching a bit for a small test batch just to try it out.

A store just up the street from us has about all the bulk grains I could ever use.

 

[Lefou]

"So I gelatinized them by boiling, and combined them with the main mash to bring it to about 131F for 20 min., then 149F for 60 min., and 168F 10 min. mash out. My end result was that I had good conversion without a cereal mash."

I would expect that would be fairly reasonable approach to saving some extra work. As long as you had a fairly high level of diastatic base malt the hydrolyzed starches would break down and get converted no matter what.
A step mash makes sense ... it's something I do more often than not when using European malts. My LBHS carries Dingemans, Avangard, and Weyermann malts and just to be safe, I will extend my stepped mash for more than 60 minutes. Wheat can be ground to near flour consistency in a thinner mash and I've found it helps boost efficiency. When I DON'T use a protein mash with high levels of wheat, lautering can be a real pain.

 

[okiedog]

I do the same thing when using more than a small percentage of wheat. Without a protein rest, I have to mash longer or end up with low efficiency. Breaking down some of that protein provides a bit more yeast nutrients, which can be lower if the grist contains a considerable amount of wheat or unmalted grains.