Winemaking Idiot - Assist Please

[skitter]

Alrighty then...

Trying to dip into winemaking as the wife enjoys drinking different Moscato wines. Having an interesting time trying to find information on how the process will work.

Cheapskate - That's me... Outlined below would allow me to not have to buy additional equipment other than a corker.

So if I make a 2.5 gallon batch, I can use the same Mr Beer LBK's I have been for my beer. Also in reading it looks like I can use a single can of Alexander's Muscat concentrate to make my batch. I believe the Montrachet yeast I have on hand will also work well with this, please correct me if I am wrong here.

I am having a hard time finding definitive outlines on the process... Some say during the first week of fermentation you have to stir it every week, some say you have to add acids but elsewhere states that the concentrates are already made with the acids balanced for the type of wine that is going to be made. Some say add Cambden Tablets, yet again more people say don't have to with concentrates. People state to add varying amounts of sugar, enzymes etc... and it's all rather confusing.

My current beer making process is to let it ferment for 2 weeks if under 5%, month if it's over 8%. I also have a fermentation chamber I can keep the wine at a 64-66 degree temp during fermentation. This should help explain some of the thought process in the following suggestions.

My thought on the process:
1 can Alexander's Muscat juice
1 cup Granulated Sugar
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient
4 tsp Acid Blend
Montrachet Yeast

Blend all but the yeast, top off with filtered water (carbon not RO). Rehydrate Yeast. Pitch, ferment @ 64 for 1 week (do I need to stir? Is 2 weeks on lees ok?). Rack off sediment, let sit for 2 weeks (still in fermentation chamber). Rack off sediment (do I need to add Potassium Metabisulfite?), add Xylitol to sweeten, bottle and age for 3 months + (3 months being the minimum drinkability stage).

Am I completely friggin crazy with this?

If I do not stir this out, and let it build up the gasses as beer does during fermentation, and bottle without degassing, would this maintain a slight fizz more common to D'Asti? I cannot force carb at this time, and this question is more of a gee wiz.

*edit: I meant Potassium Metabisulfite

 

[physics911]

Skitter,
There are a lot of forums dedicated to specifically wine making. As a brewer you are aware that there isn't always a short answer to get you where you need to go; the same is true for wine making. With that being said, kit wines are a great way to learn the process. They come with everything you need, and an instruction sheet.

As you have mentioned you want to keep costs down and start with concentrate, generally speaking, here are my recommendations off the top of my head:
* Don't add stuff, like acid, to the must unless you know why you are doing it, have measured your starting point, and know where the addition will take you.
* during primary fermentation I usually splash to aerate and then cover with a t-shirt until the fermentation has slowed considerably, and then snap the lid down with an airlock.
* Add k-meta to your must
* move to a secondary after a few weeks, and be mindful of the head-space
* add sorbate and fining agent before bottling

Regarding bottling with fizz, be careful that you aren't still fermenting as it can cause a dangerous situation with bottle pressure.

I'm of course just hitting the tops of the mountains with these suggestions.

 

[skitter]

Skitter,
There are a lot of forums dedicated to specifically wine making. As a brewer you are aware that there isn't always a short answer to get you where you need to go; the same is true for wine making. With that being said, kit wines are a great way to learn the process. They come with everything you need, and an instruction sheet.

As you have mentioned you want to keep costs down and start with concentrate, generally speaking, here are my recommendations off the top of my head:
* Don't add stuff, like acid, to the must unless you know why you are doing it, have measured your starting point, and know where the addition will take you.
* during primary fermentation I usually splash to aerate and then cover with a t-shirt until the fermentation has slowed considerably, and then snap the lid down with an airlock.
* Add k-meta to your must
* move to a secondary after a few weeks, and be mindful of the head-space
* add sorbate and fining agent before bottling

Regarding bottling with fizz, be careful that you aren't still fermenting as it can cause a dangerous situation with bottle pressure.

I'm of course just hitting the tops of the mountains with these suggestions.

So just try it out with the concentrate and the nutrient, check the finished product and go with it? I can do that

Do I need to mix in the K-Meta when transferring to the secondary after the initial week?

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi skitter.. Wine is far simpler to make than beer but with wine (perhaps more than with beer) you need to really respect the yeast. That means you can put away your clocks and your calendar and simply measure what the yeast is doing. And THAT means that you buy yourself an hydrometer - about $7 or $8 and THAT is perhaps the most important tool you will use.
I know nothing about Alexander products and that means I have no idea how concentrated they might be or how much water they suggest you use to dilute the juice to make the must. BUT assuming that the information is on the can you need to determine what ABV you are aiming for. You can go crazy but assuming that you understand that flavor, alcohol, acidity and sweetness need to be properly balanced typically wine makers aim for a starting gravity of about 1.090 (a potential ABV of about 12 %. That ABV will inform you how much sugar you need to add to the juice - (about 1 lb of sugar dissolved in water to make 1 US gallon will increase the gravity of that volume water by about 40 points.
Unlike brewing, wine making assumes that you a) incorporate oxygen into the must (then wine) during active fermentation - and that means that you stir the liquid twice a day and B) that stirring helps to remove CO2 which inhibits fermentation and can kill the yeast. That stirring then helps degas the wine.... BUT if you simply bottle the wine AS IF it is beer (after a month or six weeks or so) then chances are you will have bottle bombs. You want to allow the wine to sit on the lees for a month or two and then transfer that wine off the lees and allow it to age another two or three months (or another two or three times that aging process - 9 months to a year aging: Remember the ABV is about 12 % . You don't age a 12% imperial 6 weeks... do you?
Second to last point: Your primary fermenter should be larger than the starting volume (just like with beer ) but you really want to transfer (rack AKA siphon) the wine after the gravity has dropped to about 1.005 into a vessel that you can fill to the very top , a vessel with a narrow neck and one that you can seal with a bung and airlock so a Mr Beer LBK can make a great primary fermenter but after the gravity is about 1.005 you want that wine outa there stat!

This really is the last point: when the wine has aged and you are ready to bottle the wine may be very dry (it should have a gravity below water , below 1.000) so you may want to sweeten it. Sure you can use non fermentable sugars (they are not bad for your health?) Me? I would add k-meta and K-sorbate and those two chemicals added together will prevent yeast from reproducing and inhibit fermentation. Then you can add whatever sweetener you want - more of the concentrate; honey, table sugar, corn sugar, agave syrup, maple syrup. You would want to bench test to determine how much additional sweetener you want to add. You may also want to kick up the acid levels a bit and again you would want to bench test to see how much tartaric or acid blend the wine needs; an lastly, you may also want to consider adding some toasted oak cubes for a few days to add tannins, and make the flavors more complex...

 

[skitter]

Hi skitter.. Wine is far simpler to make than beer but with wine (perhaps more than with beer) you need to really respect the yeast. That means you can put away your clocks and your calendar and simply measure what the yeast is doing. And THAT means that you buy yourself an hydrometer - about $7 or $8 and THAT is perhaps the most important tool you will use.

I have a Hydrometer, finally, but with a 2.5g batch you can only take so many samples before you start running out of finished product. Thus my hesitance at testing too much (with beer you can't throw the test sample back in).

You can go crazy but assuming that you understand that flavor, alcohol, acidity and sweetness need to be properly balanced typically wine makers aim for a starting gravity of about 1.090 (a potential ABV of about 12 %. That ABV will inform you how much sugar you need to add to the juice - (about 1 lb of sugar dissolved in water to make 1 US gallon will increase the gravity of that volume water by about 40 points.

I'm not trying to go crazy just yet. I want to see if I can make a good tasting wine, it doesn't have to be all powerful. That being said, if I added the Concentrate, diluted to 2 gallons total volume, and too a hydrometer reading at that point (they call for 1 can for 5 gallons 5-6% wine) could I then adjust as needed adding more or less 1c sugar at a time if needed? I'm tempted to just use the concentrate without any additions as physics said.

Unlike brewing, wine making assumes that you a) incorporate oxygen into the must (then wine) during active fermentation - and that means that you stir the liquid twice a day and B) that stirring helps to remove CO2 which inhibits fermentation and can kill the yeast. That stirring then helps degas the wine.... BUT if you simply bottle the wine AS IF it is beer (after a month or six weeks or so) then chances are you will have bottle bombs. You want to allow the wine to sit on the lees for a month or two and then transfer that wine off the lees and allow it to age another two or three months (or another two or three times that aging process - 9 months to a year aging: Remember the ABV is about 12 % .

I was not aware that Wine yeast reacted differently to the Co2 than beer yeast did. As to the leaving on the Lees, most the postings said to transfer to secondary after a relatively short time before the longer age step. So if I did 2 weeks primary and a month secondary would this theoretically be ok? Assuming fermentation was complete? I'm not going to bottle without making sure fermentation stops, I just wanted to see if allowing the Co2 to stay in suspension would work, as I read someplace that was done by the pro's to get a light fizz.

You don't age a 12% imperial 6 weeks... do you?

I just brewed my first 11% beer this weekend, and I'm assuming I will not be able to open it until next winter. The plan was keeping it in the LBK for a month as that's usually all it takes for my 9-8%'s to ferment out if I use a full packet of yeast on a 2.5g batch. So no I'm not used to long term aging.

Second to last point: Your primary fermenter should be larger than the starting volume (just like with beer ) but you really want to transfer (rack AKA siphon) the wine after the gravity has dropped to about 1.005 into a vessel that you can fill to the very top , a vessel with a narrow neck and one that you can seal with a bung and airlock so a Mr Beer LBK can make a great primary fermenter but after the gravity is about 1.005 you want that wine outa there stat!

That really sucks, because I do not have a way of keeping it cool unless it's in an LBK, nor do I have a vessel of that size that I can even attempt to use the swamp cooler concept on.

This really is the last point: when the wine has aged and you are ready to bottle the wine may be very dry (it should have a gravity below water , below 1.000) so you may want to sweeten it. Sure you can use non fermentable sugars (they are not bad for your health?) Me? I would add k-meta and K-sorbate and those two chemicals added together will prevent yeast from reproducing and inhibit fermentation. Then you can add whatever sweetener you want - more of the concentrate; honey, table sugar, corn sugar, agave syrup, maple syrup. You would want to bench test to determine how much additional sweetener you want to add. You may also want to kick up the acid levels a bit and again you would want to bench test to see how much tartaric or acid blend the wine needs; an lastly, you may also want to consider adding some toasted oak cubes for a few days to add tannins, and make the flavors more complex...

Xylitol hasn't been shown to have any bad effects, and I use it extensively to make carbonated Cider. My wife isn't a big fan of super dry, nor am I, Xylitol seemed the best option and I have had success with it. I made a lemonade that I used Sorbate in and I could tell the difference. It was added 2 days prior to bottling and it left a funky sulfur taste to the lemonade.

I will wait on attempting any type of Acid additions, I'm not a wine drinker and even if it takes a while to be able to tell the finished product, I'll let her be the judge.

 

[Mismost]

If you're going to use the Alexander's Muscat concentrate, There is a recipe on the can. I suggest on your first batch, you follow that recipe and just learn the process. As far as extra equipment goes, a 7 gallon ferm bucket and lid and airlock is really cheap...if you need it, buy it. You will make decent wine and have fun too.

 

[skitter]

If you're going to use the Alexander's Muscat concentrate, There is a recipe on the can. I suggest on your first batch, you follow that recipe and just learn the process. As far as extra equipment goes, a 7 gallon ferm bucket and lid and airlock is really cheap...if you need it, buy it. You will make decent wine and have fun too.

I have no way of fermentation control for that size

 

[physics911]

skitter, a closet, or basement, or anywhere in your house which doesn't have wild temperature swings will work. I'm certainly not saying temperature control isn't important, but you can still make a perfectly good wine in the closet. And a fermentation bucket is just a bit bigger than a 5 gallon bucket; doesn't take up a lot of room.

Just like you probably did with your first few beers, dive in and enjoy the process.

 

[DoctorCAD]

You dont need temp control, room temp is perfecty fine. Forget beer processes, wine is easy, juice, yeast and time.

 

[skitter]

skitter, a closet, or basement, or anywhere in your house which doesn't have wild temperature swings will work. I'm certainly not saying temperature control isn't important, but you can still make a perfectly good wine in the closet. And a fermentation bucket is just a bit bigger than a 5 gallon bucket; doesn't take up a lot of room.

Just like you probably did with your first few beers, dive in and enjoy the process.

Its winter in TX lol, heater is on 70, never drops below that but gets up to 76-78 during the day when I am not home.

I get your gist thought... I'm meticulous about when I try something I try it as right as possible.

 

[skitter]

Thank you all for the assist. Time for some trial and error!

 

[bernardsmith]

Skitter, While brewers have near apoplexy at the thought of returning to the fermenter a sample they have withdrawn, wine makers are totaly laid back at the idea of returning samples to the carboy. Wine is typically far more acidic than beer - which is why it does not 'spoil' as easily and can be aged for years, and wine makers use K-meta as their sanitizer and so are happy with the idea of sanitizing their wine thief, their measuring cylinder and their hydrometer withdrawing a sample and returning it.
I routinely make one gallon batches of wines from fruit or honey (mead) - and three and five gallon batches - and have never experienced any perceptible bacterial infection and I make take a sample daily during the first week or so while the wine is in the primary fermenter (a bucket loosely covered with a towel - to boot). After gravity has dropped to about 1.005 (some on this forum are more conservative and would argue , 1.010) you do need to prevent contact with air - because air will oxidize the fruit and encourage acetobacter action (vinegar)

 

[skitter]

Thanks for the insight. I decided Ill probably pick up a bucket and a 3g carboy and start will wines ok with an ambient 70 degree temp, that way I dont have to worry about cooling for now

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

When they tell you that temperature control isn't a big deal for winemaking I would pointedly disagree, especially for whites. HOWEVER, Yes you can make decent wine at ambient temps but you need to make sure the yeast you are using is within the appropriate range. Active ferments can reach up to 10 degrees above ambient so maybe going with a different yeast is the best strategy. K1v-1116 is pretty bulletproof, especially at higher temps, and flocculates well. Now, here's the nifty bit. K1V will ferment your must down to absolute dryness, and since you plan on backsweetening with xylitol (if it works for you, I use it in liquers) you could, after checking to make sure the wine is completely dry and degassed (e.g. a good splash racking to get much of the suspended CO2 out) you could prime the batch, hit it with a tiny bit of sulphur to keep it protected (it won't harm the carbonating process, champagne makers use a LOT of KMBS) and bottle in beer bottles if you want a nice sparkling moscato. It won't be like a proper champagne since it won't be carbonated to such high atmospheres, but it will give the wine a nice petillance, if you can tolerate pouring it off the yeast like you would with a bottle craft beer. Hope any of this helps and Happy Brewing!

EDIT: I've never used Montrachet but looked up the temp ranges, looks like the upper end is 86 degrees but I'd personally be kinda worried and checking the temp constantly if it got even close to that. Anyways, you can use it and should be pretty safe, but other options are also good to consider. K1V-1116 was my friend for a lot of homebrewing years as it's excellent for warm climates. Being in AZ I can feel your pain when summertime comes.

 

[skitter]

So I found the sister site winemakingtalk.com and found a recipe for dragons blood. Combining that and somewhat of the super sugar method i did 2x 15oz bottles of lemon juice, 1x 3lb bag of triple berry, and 14c of granulated sugar for 3 gallons using the montrache. This should produce a slightly sweet wine with some berry flavor. Ambient is 70