Wilser bag woes

[brewdaytoday]

My first Wilser bag worked well. Then when I got a new kettle I sent Wilser the dimensions and ended up with a much different experience:

Every time I brew I have to struggle to gather enough material at the top of the bag so that I can securely wrap a hitch around it. It takes me a couple of minutes of pulling and twisting the material to get the hitch wrapped around (working on top of a hot mash makes this a miserable task). Even after all that there is barely enough material above the hitch and after I lift it I fear the bag might slip through and fall into the hot pot. This is much different than my first bag where there was much more slack and it was quick and easy to tie the hitch. Pictures of hoisted bags I see on HBT tell me it's not normal to have so little slack.

Wilser has taken the position that I must be doing something wrong (he doesn't know what). He refuses to consider the simplest explanation that he built the bag to the wrong dimensions for my pot and refuses to simply make another bag a few inches taller. Not great service to a repeat customer.

 

[whoaru99]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...o-a-wilser-mesh-biab-bag-for-hoisting.703194/
few pics in that thread that look like they're working with not a whole lot different amount.

I'd think if there is a knob, so to speak, at the top from a drawstring, as long as you get a tight clinch/choker below that it's probably not going too far with the weight on it.

looks like you may have a double wrap around the bag with your choker. is that beneficial? Almost seems like it could be counterproductive to best grip but I've not done it. Future project for me.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

What's it look like during the mash? does the edge come over the lip of the kettle a comfortable amount?

My big bag for my big pot kinda looks like that when pulling it. I was very used to my smaller bag in my smaller pot. It is pretty polarizing.

 

[brewdaytoday]

few pics in that thread that look like they're working with not a whole lot different amount.

Yes, but two things to consider: (1) I had to spend substantial effort to get the darn loop around the bag at the point you see in my photo, and (2) once I lift the bag I lose some of the slack you see because the weight of the bag pulls some of the fabric through the loop.

It eventually ends pretty close to the drawstring...

I'd think if there is a knob, so to speak, at the top from a drawstring, as long as you get a tight clinch/chinch below that it's probably not going too far with the weight on it.

I think that ultimately you are correct - it's just hard to trust when you are fractions of an inch from disaster!

 

[brewdaytoday]

What's it look like during the mash? does the edge come over the lip of the kettle a comfortable amount?

An inch or so, I'd say. It's more than enough for me to tighten the drawstring below the lip and have no fear of the bag slipping into the kettle during the mash.

 

[brewdaytoday]

Here's what it looks like lifted. The small slack I had gathered slipped through and the cinch is now resting on the drawstring. The effect whoaru99 mentioned is what's keeping the bag from cannonballing into my kettle of wort.

 

[shoengine]

I make a loop in the drawstring and lift with that. Several years and no problems, as long as the knot is right.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Draw string hoist lift for me too. I tie a surgeon's loop most lifts, or a double surgeon's loop for heavier lifts, about 8 inches or so from the top of the bag. Quick, simple, and strong.

 

[brewdaytoday]

I make a loop in the drawstring and lift with that. Several years and no problems, as long as the knot is right.

I tried that for a couple of brews, even though I don't necessarily trust that that's a secure way to lift the bag and because it increases the height I need to lift the pully because the bag attachment point is higher.

The downfall is that my drawstring is three feet long so I had to tie a slipknot in it to reduce the length. It took forever to untie that slipknot because the cord is pretty thin and the weight of the bag for a long period locked that knot super tight.

 

[doug293cz]

What is the kettle volume, and how much grain are you mashing? Your bag looks way more full than I am used to on my system.

Brew on

 

[wepeeler]

My first Wilser bag worked well. Then when I got a new kettle I sent Wilser the dimensions and ended up with a much different experience:

Every time I brew I have to struggle to gather enough material at the top of the bag so that I can securely wrap a hitch around it. It takes me a couple of minutes of pulling and twisting the material to get the hitch wrapped around (working on top of a hot mash makes this a miserable task). Even after all that there is barely enough material above the hitch and after I lift it I fear the bag might slip through and fall into the hot pot. This is much different than my first bag where there was much more slack and it was quick and easy to tie the hitch. Pictures of hoisted bags I see on HBT tell me it's not normal to have so little slack.

Wilser has taken the position that I must be doing something wrong (he doesn't know what). He refuses to consider the simplest explanation that he built the bag to the wrong dimensions for my pot and refuses to simply make another bag a few inches taller. Not great service to a repeat customer.

View attachment 835983

Looks to me like you have way too much grain in that bag for the size of your kettle. I could be wrong but with that perspective, it seems like too much grain and water volume.

That being said, Wilser was a bit curt with his replies to me a few years back when questioning his bags. I had the same customer service experience as a repeat customer.

 

[brewdaytoday]

What is the kettle volume, and how much grain are you mashing? Your bag looks way more full than I am used to on my system.

20 gallon kettle. Typically 36 pound grain bill with 15 gallons water.

 

[brewdaytoday]

That being said, Wilser was a bit curt with his replies to me a few years back when questioning his bags. I had the same customer service experience as a repeat customer.

Yeah, this guy too:

I assumed it was just a manufacturing flaw or something and he'd send me a new one. Instead he just said I must be doing something wrong then ignored me. Very unimpressed. wilserbrewer BIAB bags

 

[wepeeler]

Yeah, this guy too:

I don't wanna be that guy. His bags are usually great, but he could have been nicer/friendlier. Just saying...

 

[wepeeler]

20 gallon kettle. Typically 36 pound grain bill with 15 gallons water.

That's max. I have a 15 gallon kettle, and if I do 30# grain, I'm pushing the limit. Big time.

 

[brewdaytoday]

That's max. I have a 15 gallon kettle, and if I do 30# grain, I'm pushing the limit. Big time.

Do you feel like that's the limit for your kettle, or your bag, or both?

If you do 30# of grain in a 15 gallon kettle, the equivalent ratio is 40# of grain in a 20 gallon kettle.

 

[doug293cz]

20 gallon kettle. Typically 36 pound grain bill with 15 gallons water.

That's a mash volume of ~18 gal. So with a typical bag height vs. kettle depth, you're not going to have a lot of bag to work with above the mash. Your "typical" case would be an edge case for most other BIABers. You should consider getting a bag that is intentionally taller than the standard Wilser design, or get the bag design that has handles.

Brew on

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] or get the bag design that has handles

Exactly!
With the straps sewn onto the bag going all the way around the bottom to help support the load when lifting.

 

[wdavis2003]

These are great. Still on my first bag many brews later

https://www.brewinabag.com/

 

[tracer bullet]

These are great. Still on my first bag many brews later

https://www.brewinabag.com/

Yeah... I love and hate mine. It does have the handles to lift it, which is great, but it's SO heavy duty I find it hard to manipulate and do things with manually when I have a volume of grain I can handle by hand.

The Wilser on the other hand is a bit flimsy, it works and I've used it a ton, so I can't expect it to last forever but it's getting some rips and tears in it. I don't have anything sharp to hurt it on. Hard to complain since it's been used a ton of times, things do wear out.

My perfect bag would be kind of in between the two.

As for customer service, only had some back and forth when ordering, and it went well. Never had to follow up. No plans to ask about the bag ripping given the life it's seen. If I contact him it'd probably be to simply get another.

 

[wsmith1625]

Wilser bags are custom made and he's made a lot of them. I'm guessing the size he sent you works for 99% of his customers. You're obviously brewing high gravity brews so your specific needs are different. Order a new bag and ask him to add X" to the height.

 

[tracer bullet]

Wilser bags are custom made and he's made a lot of them. I'm guessing the size he sent you works for 99% of his customers. You're obviously brewing high gravity brews so your specific needs are different. Order a new bag and ask him to add X" to the height.

Good point. 2 bags, one for high gravity, one for not. A lifetime supply in a way. Plus, I'm a big fan of backup parts and kind of suggest a bag is one it's OK to have an extra of.

 

[doug293cz]

The Wilser on the other hand is a bit flimsy,

Yes, they do seem to be, but looks are deceiving. Here's a photo of a Wilser bag holding 120 lbs of gym weights:

I use Wilser bags, and have had zero issues.

Brew on

 

[mac_1103]

Here's a photo of a Wilser bag holding 120 lbs of gym weights:

Iron City clone?

 

[Bassman2003]

I think your only way forward is to order another bag with extra inches added to the vertical height as suggested. He made the bag correctly if it has an inch or two to fold over during the mash. The method of choice to raise the bag is to pull the drawstrings and lift with the drawstrings. So if you tell him that is "wrong" he is not going to say it is wrong, because it will work. Since you do not want to use the drawstrings, it becomes a special use design. Thankfully it is not that expensive.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I like the two bag idea - one for 'normal', and one high gravity. As others pointed out, I think your grain bill is pushing capacity and that cinch is about as good as it's going to get.

Others also mentioned the BrewBag bag. Those are great for heavier grain bills. The straps are quite substantial. My only complaint is those same straps are made out of heavier dutier webbing and it wicks and gets the handles all wet during the mash.

 

[brewdaytoday]

The method of choice to raise the bag is to pull the drawstrings and lift with the drawstrings.

The argument that resonated with me the most for the Wilser bag over the BrewBag was that the straps raised the attachment point and required a higher hoist. If I use the drawstring this negates the Wilser benefit and gives the advantage to BrewBag because attaching to straps is easier than either drawstring or cinch.

Also, lifting by the drawstring concentrates the load onto a much smaller part of the bag which seems unwise. Bobby @BrewHardware says "We also include a small loop of paracord to use as a lifting "choker" since you should not use the built in drawstring as a lifting point."

 

[AlexKay]

Lay the bag flat. Measure. Photograph. Does it reasonably match what you ordered?

Not trying to be difficult, just honestly baffled why doing this would not settle whether or not it's Wilser's mistake.

 

[brewdaytoday]

That's a mash volume of ~18 gal. So with a typical bag height vs. kettle depth, you're not going to have a lot of bag to work with above the mash. Your "typical" case would be an edge case for most other BIABers.

Yes, it's almost exactly 18 gallons. I agree this could be a factor but it doesn't seem to be that out of the ordinary.

That said, amidst demonstrations of Wilser bags holding 120 pounds of weights, it would come as some surprise if the bag isn't intended for the size of my grain bill. Max grain bill isn't something I've ever read about on the forums and Wilser doesn't talk about it on his web site.

Also, Wilser doesn't ask about the grain bill. He simply asks for the dimensions of my kettle and decides on the dimensions of the bag based on a formula only he knows.

 

[matt_m]

I've got a lot of brew days on my BrewBag 400 micron bag. Its pretty stained and I've got a backup in the closet but see no sign I need to retire the original any time soon.

 

[UdonPete]

I agree with most replies, the BrewBag is far superior The Brew Bag-Designed for Brew In A Bag-This is your LAST brew bag!

 

[wepeeler]

I agree with most replies, the BrewBag is far superior The Brew Bag-Designed for Brew In A Bag-This is your LAST brew bag!

Definitely not. The Wilser bag is way better quality and wort drains better. I started with the Brew Bag but would never go back.

 

[UdonPete]

Definitely not. The Wilser bag is way better quality and wort drains better. I started with the Brew Bag but would never go back.

I can accept the Wilser bag has larger mesh to enable it to drain faster* but I've never had a problem draining (then squeezing) the Brew Bag however with that farcical method of tying up the mouth of the bag makes it a no-no
*question is, is a large mesh which allows more trub to escape preferable?

 

[wepeeler]

I can accept the Wilser bag has larger mesh to enable it to drain faster* but I've never had a problem draining (then squeezing) the Brew Bag however with that farcical method of tying up the mouth of the bag makes it a no-no
*question is, is a large mesh which allows more trub to escape preferable?

It's actually finer mesh than the Brew Bag. But the material allows the wort to flow through very nicely.

 

[UdonPete]

It's actually finer mesh than the Brew Bag. But the material allows the wort to flow through very nicely.

Sorry I have to laugh, a hole is a hole and a smaller diameter equals less flow

 

[whoaru99]

That said, amidst demonstrations of Wilser bags holding 120 pounds of weights, it would come as some surprise if the bag isn't intended for the size of my grain bill.

Weight itself isn't the matter at hand.

36lb is 36lb whether it's 36lb of steel or grain or ping pong balls. Completely different volumes though.

 

[wepeeler]

Sorry I have to laugh, a hole is a hole and a smaller diameter equals less flow

Laugh all you want. I've used both, and my experience with the Wilser bag is a better one. I would never try to sell anyone on an inferior product.

 

[mac_1103]

Yes, it's almost exactly 18 gallons. I agree this could be a factor but it doesn't seem to be that out of the ordinary.

I think lots of folks would say that full volume BIAB with 36 lbs in a 20 gallon kettle is well out of the ordinary. As has been said, you're leaving yourself a very small amount of space above the mash. That's why the standard height bag design doesn't leave you as much material to wrap as you'd like. You said your first bag worked well - what size what your old kettle and how much grain were you mashing in it?

 

[brewdaytoday]

There's nothing odd about my setup. BrewHardware says a 20 gallon BIAB kettle is good for "6 to 12 gallon batches with practically no upper ABV limit." I'm making just less than 12 gallons of 1.075 wort to go into a 14 gallon fermenter. And in fact, the only weak link in my simple process is the Wilser bag.

Here's a picture from Wilser's website that shows a close-to-the-rim mash. I'll also point out all that extra slack down the outside of the kettle.

Whether it's weights or huge grain bills, Wilser highlights big batches and never cautions customers that his bags have limits. Also from his website this large grain bill - and look at all that slack:

 

[whoaru99]

Already demonstrated you can and have lifted successfully. Case closed as I see it.