Will this get you better extraction and save time?

[DesignatedDrinker]

So I was messing with some things and got this idea. After mash we vorluaf to settle the grain bed a little so we dont get alot of crap in our kettle.

What if you skip the vorluaf and just drain while stirring until the water level gets low enough to where you cant stir so you begin to add sparge water while stirring as you drain. Once you cant stir anymore due to thickness, just let it drain. Or divide this up into two runnings but skip the vorluaf and stir. So you would no doubt end up with grain husks and junk in your kettle, but what if you had a way to filter that miniscule amount out. Maybe a double mesh screen, or a second way smaller MLT(1-2 gal gatorade cooler)?



Am I missing something here? Or would this work and give you higher efficiency?

I batch sparge and get decent efficiency but this just seems easier and faster, if it would work that is.

 

[Yooper]

Batch sparging sort of is what you're describing- drain the MLT, add the sparge water, stir like you mean it, vorlauf a quart or so, drain rapidly.

That works great.

But it won't work so well if continuous sparging, as the whole reason fly sparging works is due to the principle of diffusion- higher sugars moving to the lower gravity water and not via stirring and agitation.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

Batch sparging sort of is what you're describing- drain the MLT, add the sparge water, stir like you mean it, vorlauf a quart or so, drain rapidly.

That works great.

But it won't work so well if continuous sparging, as the whole reason fly sparging works is due to the principle of diffusion- higher sugars moving to the lower gravity water and not via stirring and agitation.

Im talking about stirring while you drain as appose to stirring, let settle, then drain. meanwhile adding sparge water so the entire time no sugars have time to settle while they are being drained because your are stirring.

 

[Yooper]

Im talking about stirring while you drain as appose to stirring, let settle, then drain. meanwhile adding sparge water so the entire time no sugars have time to settle while they are being drained because your are stirring.

Well, you don't "let settle" when you batch sparge. You stir in the sparge water, stirring the whole grainbed like it owes you money, vorlauf a quart or so (big husks), then drain the whole works. It takes like 5 minutes.

I don't see any advantage at all to what you propose vs. the accepted method of batch sparging, but if you want to try it and don't mind using a strainer or something to dig out the husks of grain that make it to the boil kettle, it shouldn't do any harm either.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

Well, you don't "let settle" when you batch sparge. You stir in the sparge water, stirring the whole grainbed like it owes you money, vorlauf a quart or so (big husks), then drain the whole works. It takes like 5 minutes.

I don't see any advantage at all to what you propose vs. the accepted method of batch sparging, but if you want to try it and don't mind using a strainer or something to dig out the husks of grain that make it to the boil kettle, it shouldn't do any harm either.

Batch sparge is the method I use. But when you begin to drain, the grain becomes compacted as water is removed during first runnings(settles). Sugars are caught in this compacted grain causing you to have to do a 2nd running or even a third. So if you never let them compact and just did one running while adding water and stirring while draining, wouldnt this keep more sugars suspended in the liquid during the drain thus giving you more in your kettle?

 

[pumpkinman2012]

You stir in the sparge water, stirring the whole grain bed like it owes you money

I love it!

 

[Yooper]

Batch sparge is the method I use. But when you begin to drain, the grain becomes compacted as water is removed during first runnings(settles). Sugars are caught in this compacted grain causing you to have to do a 2nd running or even a third. So if you never let them compact and just did one running while adding water and stirring while draining, wouldnt this keep more sugars suspended in the liquid during the drain thus giving you more in your kettle?

Well, if the grain gets compacted and you need a second sparge, then it sounds like you're doing it wrong. That sounds harsh, but the grainbed remains quite fluid, until it is dry.

If you're having problems with grainbed compaction (although I can't comprehend why unless you're pumping with too much force), and needing a second sparge to compensate, then maybe your idea would be beneficial to you.

One of the guys I respect and learn from all the time is Denny Conn. I love his quick 'n easy method of batch sparging- http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/ He is well known for literally having written the book on batch sparging, and I'm sure he would be more helpful that I am on this subject.

But what I know is that I can continous sparge my batch over 45-60 minutes, and get 75% efficiency, or batch sparge with one round of sparge water and get 75% efficiency- so no sugars are "lost" in a proper batch sparge and it takes like 5 minutes.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

I usually get 70%, that means 30% is still in the MLT, so 30% is "lost" due to it being caught in the grain, even with a proper batch sparge, ASSUMING YOU HAD FULL CONVERSION. So if you mashed, drain while stirring and adding water until you hit your volume or got a very low running gravity I think you could easily hit 90-100. I mean the concept makes sense if you think about, I probably wouldnt try it tho because if it failed thats alot of cash waisted lol.

 

[Yooper]

I usually get 70%, that means 30% is still in the MLT, so 30% is "lost" due to it being caught in the grain, even with a proper batch sparge. So if you mashed, drain while stirring and adding water until you hit your volume or got a very low running gravity I think you could easily hit 90-100. I mean the concept makes sense if you think about, I probably wouldnt try it tho because if it failed thats alot of cash waisted lol.

Really? 90-100% efficiency?

I'm sorry to tease, but if you can get 100% efficiency, I'm sure Budweiser and others will beat down your door for your secrets!

The idea of maximizing efficiency isn't so much the amount of sugars you get into solution, but instead maximizing the amount of sugars in the quantity of wort you have and making a quality wort.

If you sparged another 20 gallons, and boiled for 7 hours, your efficiency would go up as you'd get more wort and more sugars out of the grain- but your fuel costs would go up. If you oversparge, and your pH rises, you'll extract tannins. There are a lot of things that go into brewhouse efficiency, but stirring the mash during the sparge if batch sparging would be so negligible.

Of course, you should try it. And see for yourself if this works for you or not.

But if you want to try it because you're having grainbed compaction issues, fix THAT issue and the other issues will go away.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

I have personally seen mid 90% so it is possible. 100% maybe not lol. As far as my personal process goes, i have no issues and am happy with 70-75%.

 

[masonsjax]

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that mashing creates dry granular sugar that needs to dissolve into the water, or that can sink or get stuck in the grainbed. They believe that hot water will help dissolve and thin out the wort or that dividing up the sparge into multiple batches helps to liberate the captive sugar. None of that is correct. The sugars are already in solution as they are created and when batch sparging, the grainbed simply needs to be agitated to homogenize the sweet wort with the fresh sparge water.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that mashing creates dry granular sugar that needs to dissolve into the water, or that can sink or get stuck in the grainbed. They believe that hot water will help dissolve and thin out the wort or that dividing up the sparge into multiple batches helps to liberate the captive sugar. None of that is correct. The sugars are already in solution as they are created and when batch sparging, the grainbed simply needs to be agitated to homogenize the sweet wort with the fresh sparge water.

I agree that they are not granulated and are a solution rather, but to say they cant get stuck in the grainbed is false, otherwise we would all be getting higher then 70-80. That missing 20-30% is still stuck/absorbed in your grain. Assuming again that you had full conversion.

 

[masonsjax]

If your intention is to create a quality wort there will always be some sugar that gets left behind. Of course that sugar will be left in the grainbed, where else would it be? The idea that letting the sparge rest as it drains will cause the sugars to somehow get caught in the grain after being properly mixed into solution and that stirring while draining is a fix to that problem is not logical. If you have full conversion and acceptable pH, the best way to maximize efficiency when batch sparging is to stir vigorously before draining. There wouldn't appear to be any reason to expect further gains by stirring while draining unless you've not adequately stirred prior to draining. However, like other posters here, I also encourage you to experiment for yourself to see what it does for you.