Wildly varying BIAB efficiency frustrations. What do I do?

[vance]

Re-posting this from the Reddit homebrew sub, to get a few different opinions and ideas.

So. I'm seriously considering buying a mash tun and giving up on BIAB because of this, because holy cow is it frustrating. I just cannot nail down a consistent efficiency number!
To start - I know my two big problems are bad LHBS crush, and not knowing how to measure volumes. I just don't know how to fix these. I tried to get a ruler to measure volumes with, but it came with a cork base that I'm uncomfortable putting into boiling wort. I also tried electrolytic etching of my kettle, but with no success getting clear markings. I also can't get away from my LHBS crush, since I don't have money or space to buy a mill and bulk grain. I ask them to crush it twice, but apparently it doesn't help.
What's frustrating me today is not even being able to hit a constant efficiency, even if it's low. I brewed an IPA on wednesday, and had Beersmith set at 70% efficiency. I mashed with 8.5 gallons of water, and had it set for .5 gallons of trub loss and 5.5 into the fermenter. I had to pour about a quarter gallon of trub into my fermenter to hit my volumes, which I wanted because it was a heavily dry hopped beer. Came out at about 7-8 points under gravity. I brewed again today, a black IPA. I set my efficency at 60% this time, since that's close to what I hit last time. My efficiency was even lower! I mashed in with 8.75 gallons of water this time, but I still had to pour some trub in somehow. I forgot to pull a sample to take gravity until after I pitched my yeast, so maybe I had some stratification or something, but I was still very low on gravity - 10+ points, judging by what I could tell from putting my hydrometer straight into the bucket.
What the hell do I do here? How do I lock in a consistent efficiency so I can actually hit my numbers for once, while being constrained to LHBS mill settings? Should I just give up on BIAB and build a mash tun?

 

[mongoose33]

It would help if we had the exact recipes.

I'm new to BIAB (not to all-grain), and the first suggestion I had was to set my mill gap about .020, compared to what was (IIRC) about .035. My guess is your LHBS is not using the smaller gap.

Couple of other thoughts: are you squeezing the bag? If not, are you sparging in any way?

 

[vance]

It would help if we had the exact recipes.

I'm new to BIAB (not to all-grain), and the first suggestion I had was to set my mill gap about .020, compared to what was (IIRC) about .035. My guess is your LHBS is not using the smaller gap.

Couple of other thoughts: are you squeezing the bag? If not, are you sparging in any way?

NEIPA grain bill:

4# pilsner
3# maris otter
3# 2-row
1# flaked oats
1# flaked wheat

Beersmith predictions: 1.057 OG, .5 gallon kettle loss, 70% efficiency. Actual: ~1.051 OG, .25 gallon kettle loss.

Black IPA grain bill:

9# MO
4# wheat
.75# carapils
.75# carafa III special

Beersmith predictions: 1.060 OG, .5 gallon kettle loss, 60% efficiency. Actual: ~1.04 OG (I had already poured my yeast in because I forgot to take a sample and this was just looking at the hydrometer in the bucket, so may not be accurate), .25-.3 gallon kettle loss, trash efficiency.

No control over the mill gap. I squeeze the **** out of the bag, and don't sparge.

 

[thekraken]

I'm not sure why switching to a MLT would help at all.

Well you could go to lows or home depot and get a cheap wooden yard stick, or a metal one, or just a wooden dowel to use as your volume measuring stick, or a mash paddle of you have one. I calibrated mine by measuring out 1/4 gallon of water at a time and adding it to the pot to and making my marks. I did this by weight because I'm anal, 1 gallon ~= 8.32 lb at room temp. If you can't get accurate measurements then you just don't know your efficiency, it could be more consistent than you think.

Also realize that your efficiency will go down as your grain bill goes up for a given batch size.

Finally, something that isn't mentioned very often but I personally found improved overall efficiency when I switched to RO water from tap water. I used the super simple water primer sticky to work out my salt additions.

 

[vance]

I'm not sure why switching to a MLT would help at all.

Well you could go to lows or home depot and get a cheap wooden yard stick, or a metal one, or just a wooden dowel to use as your volume measuring stick, or a mash paddle of you have one. I calibrated mine by measuring out 1/4 gallon of water at a time and adding it to the pot to and making my marks. I did this by weight because I'm anal, 1 gallon ~= 8.32 lb at room temp. If you can't get accurate measurements then you just don't know your efficiency, it could be more consistent than you think.

Also realize that your efficiency will go down as your grain bill goes up for a given batch size.

Finally, something that isn't mentioned very often but I personally found improved overall efficiency when I switched to RO water from tap water. I used the super simple water primer sticky to work out my salt additions.

One of the biggest problems people have with efficiency in BIAB is because they can't control their grain crush at a homebrew store, which is kind of the boat I'm in. My impression is with a mash tun, grain crush doesn't matter as much.

I've been meaning to get a postal scale or something that can accurately measure volumes by weight, right now all I have is my small scale for hops and additions. I do use RO with salt additions, not tap water. I don't have a pH meter to check that bru'n water is actually working though.

 

[Morrey]

I have to also say as the posters prior to me, that it will be helpful for you to get a handle on your current process. Grind is important but seems out of your control. Maybe ask (again) for double mill if possible?

Volume management is pretty darn important. My first kettle had no markings so I found an aluminum bar and marked the bar with a scribe in 1/2G increments. I then graduated and bought an inexpensive sight glass from Brewers Hardware and drilled my kettle and installed a weldless sight glass. Knowing your volumes is important.

 

[vance]

I have to also say as the posters prior to me, that it will be helpful for you to get a handle on your current process. Grind is important but seems out of your control. Maybe ask for double mill if possible?

Volume management is pretty darn important. My first kettle had no markings so I found an aluminum bar and marked the bar with a scribe in 1/2G increments. I then graduated and bought an inexpensive sight glass from Brewers Hardware and drilled my kettle and installed a weldless sight glass. Knowing your volumes is important.

Knowing my volumes is definitely my biggest frustration right now. I was really excited to get this metal ruler in and finally know what I was doing until it turned out it had glue and cork on it.

Current process is pretty standard, as far as I know. Measure out strike water by 1 gallon jug, pour into kettle, turn on propane burner. Takes about 40 minutes to get to strike temp. Add grain in bag, wrap in my blanket, mash for 60 minutes stirring 3 or 4 times. Usually lose 1-2 degrees over mash. I have an inner basket that came with my kettle so I usually set that slanted on top of my kettle to squeeze/drain my bag while my wort heats to boil. Boil for 60 minutes, hop additions, etc. Chill quickly with my hydra chiller, especially this time of year. Siphon/pour to fermenter, take sample if I remember, add yeast and place in chamber to ferment.

 

[mongoose33]

The only things left to comment on are mash temp and PH. What temps are you mashing at? What kind of water source are you using and what amendments to the water, if any, are you making?

 

[Sadu]

I still have varying efficiency but it's a lot closer now than it used to be, and it's within the 75-85% range. Here's my suggestions.

1. The #1 thing that helped me is a consistent sparge process. I mash in the kettle, then lift the bag into a bucket with holes drilled in the bottom. Then pour sparge water through the bucket in 2-3 batches, stirring each time water is added, and let it drain into the brew kettle while it comes to a boil. Sparging takes 15 mins. I don't squeeze as I hate doing it, and feel it makes the process more variable.

2. Try a 90 min mash if you have a low mash temperature or unmalted adjuncts like flaked oats. I find this helps with efficiency, especially if your crush is questionable.

3. You can get Corona mills for $30 in the US I believe, and they don't take much space.

4. Aim for lower efficiency on bigger beers, and higher efficiency on small beers or anything that contains sugar. I find the difference can be 10-15 points between a barleywine and a cream ale so that needs to be built into the recipe.

5. Keep some DME on hand so you can bring up the gravity if you fall way short on a given day.

 

[vance]

The only things left to comment on are mash temp and PH. What temps are you mashing at? What kind of water source are you using and what amendments to the water, if any, are you making?

I usually mash in at about 164 or so, shooting for a mash temp of 153ish. I've found that that usually gets me right on target, and mashing at 153 gives my beer a nice dry finish.

I use 100% RO water and additions, based off bru'n water. Assuming I'm using it right, of course. Don't have a pH meter to check, but I usually build my profile from those calculations.

 

[Morrey]

Knowing my volumes is definitely my biggest frustration right now. I was really excited to get this metal ruler in and finally know what I was doing until it turned out it had glue and cork on it.

Current process is pretty standard, as far as I know. Measure out strike water by 1 gallon jug, pour into kettle, turn on propane burner. Takes about 40 minutes to get to strike temp. Add grain in bag, wrap in my blanket, mash for 60 minutes stirring 3 or 4 times. Usually lose 1-2 degrees over mash. I have an inner basket that came with my kettle so I usually set that slanted on top of my kettle to squeeze/drain my bag while my wort heats to boil. Boil for 60 minutes, hop additions, etc. Chill quickly with my hydra chiller, especially this time of year. Siphon/pour to fermenter, take sample if I remember, add yeast and place in chamber to ferment.

Yeah, I'd be hesitant to put cork and glue in boiling wort as well. And your process sounds great.

I can tell you from personal experience that grain crush in really huge in efficiency gains. I recently took my MM3 mill offline while I did a motor mill build for it. While my normal mill as offline, I used an old Corona mill and went from an average of 83% efficiency with the MM3, and got 73% with the Corona mill. Now that my MM3 is back online, I'll regain that stability. I know you are frustrated and have been there myself.

But back to the all important volume management....Maybe you can scrape off that cork and glue with a paint scraper? But you can be flexible since any measuring stick you use is on the hot side so sanitization is not critical. Even a wooden dowel with markings is better than nothing.

 

[vance]

Yeah, I'd be hesitant to put cork and glue in boiling wort as well. And your process sounds great.

I can tell you from personal experience that grain crush in really huge in efficiency gains. I recently took my MM3 mill offline while I did a motor mill build for it. While my normal mill as offline, I used an old Corona mill and went from an average of 83% efficiency with the MM3, and got 73% with the Corona mill. Now that my MM3 is back online, I'll regain that stability. I know you are frustrated and have been there myself.

But back to the all important volume management....Maybe you can scrape off that cork and glue with a paint scraper? But you can be flexible since any measuring stick you use is on the hot side so sanitization is not critical. Even a wooden dowel with markings is better than nothing.

I could get the cork off, but not the glue. I think when I get paid I'm going to find a cheap postal scale on Amazon and mark a wooden stick with a dremel. My next major upgrade is going to be a Spike kettle with a valve and volume markings, but that's not for a few months. I'm hoping my problems come down to volume, not grain mill. I go to the same shop every time and I know the owner takes care of his mill, but he can't really adjust it just for me down to the gaps that most BIAB brewers use.

 

[Morrey]

I could get the cork off, but not the glue. I think when I get paid I'm going to find a cheap postal scale on Amazon and mark a wooden stick with a dremel. My next major upgrade is going to be a Spike kettle with a valve and volume markings, but that's not for a few months. I'm hoping my problems come down to volume, not grain mill. I go to the same shop every time and I know the owner takes care of his mill, but he can't really adjust it just for me down to the gaps that most BIAB brewers use.

I can understand the LHBS gap (not changing) so all you can hope for is double grind. Unless you can find your own mill at a good price, you'll be dependent on the grind others supply to you. BUT, if THEY are consistent, and even if you got 70%, you know your numbers and YOU can be consistent.

A kettle is a big investment, but a darn good kettle is an important part of your brewing equipment. Mongoose33 bought a Spike kettle recently and shared he would buy it all over again if he had it all to do over again.

Stay solid with your plans and it all will come together!

 

[vance]

I can understand the LHBS gap (not changing) so all you can hope for is double grind. Unless you can find your own mill at a good price, you'll be dependent on the grind others supply to you. BUT, if THEY are consistent, and even if you got 70%, you know your numbers and YOU can be consistent.

A kettle is a big investment, but a darn good kettle is an important part of your brewing equipment. Mongoose33 bought a Spike kettle recently and shared he would buy it all over again if he had it all to do over again.

Stay solid with your plans and it all will come together!

I'd be thrilled to get a consistent and predictable 70%, honestly. The extra bit of grain is only a couple bucks, but not knowing what my efficiency is sucks even more. Those Spike kettles are pretty damn nice. I've got the keezer, wort chiller, and fermentation chamber, so that's next up. One day...

 

[Sadu]

I have etched 2 kettles now and both came out really great. The hardest part was masking off the lines neatly.

But the actual etching part - 12v power source with positive connected to the kettle and negative connected to a cotton bud dipped in salt / vinegar solution - this part was easy. What sort of problems did you have with etching your kettle? It's probably quicker to etch a kettle than to mark up a stick with a dremel.

I never bothered tracking preboil volumes in the past but it's very easy with an etched kettle.

 

[vance]

I tried using a 9V battery and the guide posted somewhere on this site. I could get a marking, but nothing clear enough to satisfy me. I also never worked out a way to get a good vertical line of markings up and down my kettle, or to make the lines straight horizontally.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Use masking tape to get good lines! I didn't notice...assume the kettle is SS?

I picked up a metal ruler from Home Depot for a few dollars, intending to use this to measure volumes. I really don't want to pick up a kettle with >5 gallons of water/wort to take weight measurements!

 

[vance]

Use masking tape to get good lines! I didn't notice...assume the kettle is SS?

I picked up a metal ruler from Home Depot for a few dollars, intending to use this to measure volumes. I really don't want to pick up a kettle with >5 gallons of water/wort to take weight measurements!

Pretty sure it's SS, yeah. I didn't mean pick it up to measure the whole thing, but being able to measure my strike water by weight would be very helpful.

 

[mongoose33]

I'd be thrilled to get a consistent and predictable 70%, honestly. The extra bit of grain is only a couple bucks, but not knowing what my efficiency is sucks even more. Those Spike kettles are pretty damn nice. I've got the keezer, wort chiller, and fermentation chamber, so that's next up. One day...

IMO what should be next up for you is a mill. The Cereal Killer seems to get fairly good reviews, it's around $100. Currently on sale w/ free shipping for $99.99 from Austin Homebrewing.

 

[vance]

IMO what should be next up for you is a mill. The Cereal Killer seems to get fairly good reviews, it's around $100. Currently on sale w/ free shipping for $99.99 from Austin Homebrewing.

It's on the list at some point. Probably after a kettle and stir plate, unless I absolutely cannot nail down my efficiency without my own mill. My problems are these:

1. I don't have a drill either, so I'd have to buy a drill in addition to the mill.

2. I am in a decent sized house (duplex really) now with a basement, but this summer I'm in a smaller 1 bedroom apartment with my SO. I don't really have space to buy and store bulk grain, which to me is one of the two main benefits of buying a mill (crush control and bulk grain).

 

[mongoose33]

I usually mash in at about 164 or so, shooting for a mash temp of 153ish. I've found that that usually gets me right on target, and mashing at 153 gives my beer a nice dry finish.

I use 100% RO water and additions, based off bru'n water. Assuming I'm using it right, of course. Don't have a pH meter to check, but I usually build my profile from those calculations.

What are your additions for one of the recipes you posted?

 

[vance]

For the black IPA I added 7 grams of gypsum, 7 grams of CaCl, and I think 3.9 grams of baking soda - I had to raise the pH, instead of lower it, because of the carafa III.

 

[mongoose33]

It's on the list at some point. Probably after a kettle and stir plate, unless I absolutely cannot nail down my efficiency without my own mill. My problems are these:

1. I don't have a drill either, so I'd have to buy a drill in addition to the mill.

You could hand crank...

2. I am in a decent sized house (duplex really) now with a basement, but this summer I'm in a smaller 1 bedroom apartment with my SO. I don't really have space to buy and store bulk grain, which to me is one of the two main benefits of buying a mill (crush control and bulk grain).

I think you're likely to have issues until you can control what you're putting into the mash.

I don't know what you'd pay for bulk grain where you are, but I can get 50# of 2-row for 76 cents per pound. Similar savings with other grains at smaller amounts, though higher prices. I can do 5-gallon batches, depending on recipe, for under $20.

My point of course is that if you can save on grain, you can pay for this other stuff using the savings, unless you don't brew enough to accumulate the savings from it.

***********

Now, if I'm not the master of alternative storage, I must be pretty close to that status. For instance:

A bag of 50# of grain will fit in two 5-gallon buckets. You can stack two buckets next to your bed, put a 14" square board on top, cover with a piece of fabric, and voila! You have a nightstand and storage for 50# of grain.

You could choose to store the bags in flatter rectangular storage units designed to slide under a bed. Or just get a flattish container of any kind in which you can store the malt and slide under your bed; use a clear plastic bag to line it and seal in the malt and there you are--grain storage!

You could get milk crates, line with cardboard, put a plastic bag in it, and there's square-storage of grain.

Have a couch? Pull it out from the wall just enough to put buckets behind it. I'm looking at mine right now, if I pulled it out 3 inches I could get buckets behind it.

Need a desk? Eight 5-gallon buckets will support a smooth-sided door, four on either end. Lift door, pull out two buckets, slide the other two over to support the desk while you're fooling w/ the grain, then reverse to put them back.

Shelving is a huge space-multiplier. Often we have something taking up floor space above which we could create higher storage space. I'll attach a pic here showing how I solved part of my storage issues. It's a rolling shelving unit with enough space between shelves to accommodate 5-gallon buckets. I push that against other brewing storage and simply pull it out if I need to access what's behind it.

Can you add any shelving to your new digs? One interesting unused space is above the door inside closets. Nobody uses that (well, I do). You could put stuff up there freeing up space for grain.

Have any exposed joists? In an apartment, probably not, but if you have access to a basement with exposed joists above, you can create all kinds of storage space between those joists. Screw a cleat on the bottom of the joists, use that to support little shelves. I have boxes of all kinds of stuff stored between my joists. I'll attach a pic of that below.

Anyway, maybe none of this is possible but it might perhaps stimulate some other idea that would work where you're going.

 

[vance]

I'd love to have a shelf full of ingredients on hand, but SWMBO doesn't want a ton of stuff laying around everywhere, so I'm trying to confine it all to a hallway closet. I'm considering buying a lockable storage shed to keep behind the house, so that things like my propane tank, kettle, burner, etc could go out there. That could be a good space for grain storage, in a sealed bucket. I'd worry about temperature though in keeping grain out there. It gets very hot in the summer, and very cold in the winter where I live.

Now that I've vented out some frustrations through this post, I think I've settled on buying a postal scale as soon as I get a few extra bucks and measuring by weight markings on a wooden dowel, to get an accurate picture of my pre-boil volume, post-boil volume, and what sort of grain and boil losses I'm actually seeing. From there, I can narrow down consistent efficiency with my LHBS mill.

 

[madscientist451]

Should I just give up on BIAB and build a mash tun?

That's what I did. I wasn't happy with the way the beer was coming out.
My problem was mostly temperature swings during mashing.
I didn't really "build" a mash tun at all, I just got a cheap round cooler at Walmart, put a spigot on it and put my BIAB bag in that. In a way, I'm still
BIAB, but just using a cooler to hold the water instead of the brew pot.
I also manually recirculate the wort for a few minutes using a 1/2 gallon plastic pitcher and then batch sparge to reach my volume. So my current process isn't BIAB either.
I use distilled , spring and tap water from my G/F's house (my well water has iron/sulfur) so I measure the water in the jugs they come in.
My beer is much better now, my cooler "build" was about $40, (5 gallon cooler $20 & spigot about $20) and I can do step mashes in the cooler if I want to.
Its not really fair to blame my early beer problems on the BIAB method, I've added fermentation temperature control, a kegging set up, make yeast starters and do some water chemistry manipulation.
Hitting your target efficiency numbers is important, because the final ABV has an impact on percieved hop bitterness and flavor and other variables.
Its also more fun to have a brew session go smoothly without a bunch of frustrating issues.
If you can't make BIAB in a kettle work for you, $40 is not much to pay for improved beer.

 

[vance]

That's what I did. I wasn't happy with the way the beer was coming out.
My problem was mostly temperature swings during mashing.
I didn't really "build" a mash tun at all, I just got a cheap round cooler at Walmart, put a spigot on it and put my BIAB bag in that. In a way, I'm still
BIAB, but just using a cooler to hold the water instead of the brew pot.
I also manually recirculate the wort for a few minutes using a 1/2 gallon plastic pitcher and then batch sparge to reach my volume.
I use distilled , spring and tap water from my G/F's house (my well water has iron/sulfur) so I measure the water in the jugs they come in.
My beer is much better now, my cooler "build" was about $40, (5 gallon cooler $20 & spigot about $20) and I can do step mashes in the cooler if I want to.
If you can't make BIAB in a kettle work for you, $40 is not much to pay for improved beer.

I make good beer even when it comes out under efficiency, but the unpredictability frustrates me. $40 isn't much though, you're right. If nailing down my volumes doesn't fix my consistency issue I may move in that direction.

 

[Oginme]

I make good beer even when it comes out under efficiency, but the unpredictability frustrates me. $40 isn't much though, you're right. If nailing down my volumes doesn't fix my consistency issue I may move in that direction.

You are quoting efficiency numbers that you have achieved, but without accurate measurements of water volumes, you really cannot say where your inconsistency issue is coming from. While it is easy (and probably not without merit) to blame crush, you will never get any idea of how much of the variability comes from the grain crush versus inconsistency within your process if you don't measure and enter into BeerSmith the best measurements for volumes and gravity at each step you can.

 

[mongoose33]

I'd love to have a shelf full of ingredients on hand, but SWMBO doesn't want a ton of stuff laying around everywhere, so I'm trying to confine it all to a hallway closet. I'm considering buying a lockable storage shed to keep behind the house, so that things like my propane tank, kettle, burner, etc could go out there. That could be a good space for grain storage, in a sealed bucket. I'd worry about temperature though in keeping grain out there. It gets very hot in the summer, and very cold in the winter where I live.

Wild temp swings aren't generally good for perishable products. If you move the non-organic equipment outside that should leave you lots of room for buckets, a mill--and look at my previous post for ideas how to leverage your space.

Now that I've vented out some frustrations through this post, I think I've settled on buying a postal scale as soon as I get a few extra bucks and measuring by weight markings on a wooden dowel, to get an accurate picture of my pre-boil volume, post-boil volume, and what sort of grain and boil losses I'm actually seeing. From there, I can narrow down consistent efficiency with my LHBS mill.

By weight? Do you have a measuring cup? Use it to fill a plastic jug or a pitcher to get exactly 1-gallon, mark that with a piece of tape, then fill your kettle with that. You could then use that to fill when you brew, eliminating any need for a measuring stick.

I'm a bit confused as to the need for a postal scale--with what are you weighing your water additions?

And remember that when water is hot it gains volume, up to 4 percent which, in a 8.5-gallon batch of water is well over a quart of extra volume. And with 5.5 gallons it's 7/8 of a quart.

 

[thekraken]

By weight? Do you have a measuring cup? Use it to fill a plastic jug or a pitcher to get exactly 1-gallon, mark that with a piece of tape, then fill your kettle with that. You could then use that to fill when you brew, eliminating any need for a measuring stick.

You'd still need a measuring stick (or something) to take preboil, postboil volume readings.

I'm a bit confused as to the need for a postal scale--with what are you weighing your water additions?

And remember that when water is hot it gains volume, up to 4 percent which, in a 8.5-gallon batch of water is well over a quart of extra volume. And with 5.5 gallons it's 7/8 of a quart.

A scale would eliminate the temperature problem

FWIW OP, I don't know about a postal scale but I use a small digital kitchen scale, it has an 11 lb capacity. I bought it for kitchen use for baking and whatnot, and now use it all the time for brewing too. It's one of those things that now that I have it I don't know how I ever got along with out it... Cooking in general would be so much more consistent if it were common practice to give recipes by weight instead of volume.

Amazon says I bought this in 2012, and it's still going strong: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001N07KUE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[mongoose33]

FWIW OP, I don't know about a postal scale but I use a small digital kitchen scale, it has an 11 lb capacity. I bought it for kitchen use for baking and whatnot, and now use it all the time for brewing too. It's one of those things that now that I have it I don't know how I ever got along with out it... Cooking in general would be so much more consistent if it were common practice to give recipes by weight instead of volume.

Amazon says I bought this in 2012, and it's still going strong: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001N07KUE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have several smaller scales, but the one it would take two large men with crowbars attacking to take away from me is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FSWB9K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Goes up to 50 pounds, has a 2 gram +/- accuracy. I use it to weigh grain for brewing, but it's large enough to accommodate other uses. The front detaches so the display and controls can be moved away from the scale for the weighing of larger objects or containers.

 

[vance]

I have a 1 gallon pitcher that I use for measuring my water volumes right now, but I don't necessarily trust the 1 gallon marking to be exactly 1 gallon, nor do I really trust my ability to guesstimate fractions of a gallon within it. I weigh my water additions and hops on a tiny little scale that only has a pound or two capacity.

 

[vance]

You are quoting efficiency numbers that you have achieved, but without accurate measurements of water volumes, you really cannot say where your inconsistency issue is coming from. While it is easy (and probably not without merit) to blame crush, you will never get any idea of how much of the variability comes from the grain crush versus inconsistency within your process if you don't measure and enter into BeerSmith the best measurements for volumes and gravity at each step you can.

Yeah, I'm aware. The two measurements I have any certainty on are my initial strike water volume and my volume into the fermenter, but the rest I have no way to measure until I get a dipstick or something together.

 

[bleme]

I hit 85%-90% efficiency pretty regularly on my BIAB but I do crush my own grain (Cereal Killer). I also squeeze, sparge, then squeeze again.

That really sucks about the ruler. I had to look at a ton of rulers to find one without that stupid cork backing. Maybe you could take a grinder to it?

 

[vance]

It's just not worth it honestly, I don't want glue to melt off into my beer. Easier just to take the 12 dollar loss or whatever it is and go find a wooden rod to use.

 

[thekraken]

I have a 1 gallon pitcher that I use for measuring my water volumes right now, but I don't necessarily trust the 1 gallon marking to be exactly 1 gallon, nor do I really trust my ability to guesstimate fractions of a gallon within it.

Oh yeah, and there's that! Just as quickly as one can convert 0.63 gallons to quarts/cups/whatever and dose that out one could more accurately pull out there phone and convert to 0.63x8.32=5.24 lb and weigh that out directly in the pitcher... or maybe even quicker?

 

[doug293cz]

As has been well covered, efficiency calculations are only as good as the volume (and grain weight, and SG) measurements. I use the marked wooden dowel method, and calibrated by weighing out 1 gal (8.3304 lb/gal @ 68˚F) increments and marking the dowel. I had tried first with a marked 1 gal pitcher, but found its markings weren't accurate enough.

Once you get your measurements down, then you know if you really have efficiency inconsistencies. There are several different efficiencies you can calculate:

Conversion Efficiency: The actual amount of sugar created in the mash divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill.
Lauter Efficiency: The amount of sugar that makes it into your boil kettle divided by the amount of sugar that was created in the mash.
Mash Efficiency: a.k.a. Pre-Boil Efficiency. The amount of sugar that makes it into your boil kettle divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill. Mash Efficiency equals Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency.
Transfer Efficiency: The amount of sugar in your fermenter divided by the amount of sugar in your boil kettle. Also equal to the fermenter volume divided by the post-boil volume.
Brewhouse Efficiency: The amount of sugar that makes it into your fermenter divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill. Brewhouse Efficiency equals Mash Efficiency times Transfer Efficiency. Also equals Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency times Transfer Efficiency.​

All of the above definitions are for fractional efficiency. You can convert any fractional efficiency to percentage by multiplying by 100%. However, if you are multiplying efficiencies together, you need to do that with fractional efficiencies.

To get consistent overall efficiency, you need to get consistency in all of the individual elements: conversion efficiency, lauter efficiency, and transfer efficiency.

Crush, mash time and mash temp have the largest effect on conversion efficiency. You can determine your conversion efficiency from the grain bill weight, strike water volume and mash wort SG using the method described here. Your conversion efficiency should be 95% or better. Since you can't really improve your crush (yet), your best bet is to extend your mash times. If you have a refractometer, it is easy to monitor your wort SG as the mash progresses, in order to determine when your mash is "done."

There is a lot of software (BrewSmith, BrewersFriend, etc.) that will calculate your mash efficiency from your pre-boil volume, pre-boil SG, and grain bill. And the same calculation can be done with post-boil volume, post-boil SG, and grain bill, as long as no sugar was added during the boil. Once you have your mash efficiency and conversion efficiency, then calculate lauter efficiency as: lauter eff = mash eff / conv eff.

Lauter efficiency will be determined by the consistency of your sparge process (if you use one) and the consistency of your bag draining and/or squeezing. Batch sparging can be very consistent. Pouring sparge water over the bag will be less consistent. Consistency of draining/squeezing is determined by calculating the grain absorption ratio, which equals (strike volume - 1st runnings volume) / grain weight.

Transfer efficiency is just fermenter volume / post-boil volume, so you want to be consistent in the fraction of the post-boil volume that gets left in the BK.

And as mentioned by others, efficiency will vary with the size of the grain bill (for same size batches), with larger grain bills having lower efficiency. This is all due to the effect on lautering efficiency caused by more grain absorbing a greater fraction of the total wort volume. The chart below shows how lauter efficiency is affected by grain bill. To normalize for different batch sizes, the X axis is grain bill weight / pre-boil volume. Different curves represent the effects of sparge vs. no-sparge, and various grain absorption rates (levels of squeezing.)



Brew on

 

[thekraken]

calibrated by weighing out 1 gal (8.3304 lb/gal @ 68˚F)

Ahem, my tap water is 72F

 

[mongoose33]

I have a 1 gallon pitcher that I use for measuring my water volumes right now, but I don't necessarily trust the 1 gallon marking to be exactly 1 gallon, nor do I really trust my ability to guesstimate fractions of a gallon within it. I weigh my water additions and hops on a tiny little scale that only has a pound or two capacity.

You have a measuring cup, right? Measure out amounts until you get to exactly one gallon, then use a sharpie or piece of tape or some such to mark that spot on the pitcher. You can mark intermediate amounts as well.

But I have to tell you--in my view this focus on amount of water is unlikely to be the amount of water you're using, it's almost certainly in the process somewhere. You don't want a mill, can't address whether it's crush or something else, so you're focusing on something else (water).

Here's something related to process: when I first started doing all-grain, my numbers were a bit low. I read on HBT about stirring the mash at 15 and at 30 minutes to ensure even temp and even distribution of enzymes, and guess what? Efficiency shot up. Are you stirring? If not, that's an example of a process variable that can be changed.

If it were too much water, you'd end up w/ something like 6.5 gallons going into the fermenter. Or if you have too little, that doesn't make sense if you're starting with something like 8.5 gallons. Is something happening w/ the boil that you're not concentrating the wort enough? Or too much? I boil off about a gallon, so my start is generally 6.5 to 6.75 gallons. I leave a bit in the bottom of the fermenter so when I rack it I'm not drawing trub into the keg.

 

[thekraken]

You have a measuring cup, right? Measure out amounts until you get to exactly one gallon, then use a sharpie or piece of tape or some such to mark that spot on the pitcher. You can mark intermediate amounts as well.

I hope I'm not being to picky by specifying that the measuring cup should probably be a liquid measuring cup.

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5450-dry-versus-liquid-measuring-cups

 

[berndawg84]

I hit 85%-90% efficiency pretty regularly on my BIAB but I do crush my own grain (Cereal Killer). I also squeeze, sparge, then squeeze again.

That really sucks about the ruler. I had to look at a ton of rulers to find one without that stupid cork backing. Maybe you could take a grinder to it?

With doing a sparge, how do you calculate your strike water volume that you need? I do BIAB and typically your strike water is all of the water you'll need for mash and boil. I have efficiency problems as well, and am looking at solutions.

From what I've gathered, grain crush and mash pH seem to be 2 of the biggest factors in BIAB efficiency. BYO had an issue all about BIAB, and it was discussed in there (Brad Smith article I think). So if you're wanting to increase your efficiency, as others have said, it does seem like a grain mill is a great way to go.

I double crush my grains at the LBHS, but I can't seem to tell a visual difference b/w how the grains look from crush 1 to crush 2. And if you're crushing at a normal gap, instead of a tighter BIAB gap, that makes sense. for BIAB the ideal, it seems, is for the grains to almost be like flour.

Here's a link to the BYO issue, you can order it online. It was worth the purchase for me. It also discusses mash pH, and how getting it right can increase efficiency. So it seems like a grain mill and a pH meter are worthy purchases. I'm going to get a cheapo pH meter next, eventually a grain mill.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/itemlist/category/222-may-jun-2016