Why would you not mash ALL these grains?

[edsrockin]

I know this probably should go in the brew science forum, but putting here because that gets too technical for me sometimes and am hoping for a "laymen's terms" dumbed-down type answer.

I have brewed the Cherokee Nation (a hoppy brown) that is in the BYO recipe index before. However, I did it as an extract. I am now setup to handle this as an AG brew (BIAB in 5 gallon cooler) and wanted to try it as AG (and to save a couple bucks -- heh, upfront anyway).

Here is the grain bill --




9 lb. 10 oz. (4.4 kg) Maris Otter malt
7.0 oz. (0.20 kg) Munich malt
7.0 oz. (0.20 kg) wheat malt
14 oz. (0.40 kg) CaraVienne malt
14 oz. (0.40 kg) crystal malt (40 °L)
7.0 oz. (0.20 kg) chocolate malt
3.5 oz. (0.10 kg) Special B malt
14 oz. (0.40 kg) Turbinado sugar
10.5 AAU Centennial hops (FWH) (1.0 oz./28 g of 10.5% alpha acids)
32 AAU Tomahawk hops (20 mins) (2.0 oz./57 g of 16% alpha acids)
2 oz. (57 g) Cascade hops (0 mins)
2 oz. (57 g) Centennial hops (dry hop)
Wyeast 1272 (American Ale II) yeast

<cut and pasted from
http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2061-cherokee-nation-american-indian-brown-ale >


The AG instructions state "Mash base grains at 152 °F (67 °C). Add crystal malts and dark grains during recirculation and sparging."

Why wouldn't the dark grains and crystal be mashed the full time along with the base grains? Is it b/c they've already been kilned and don't need the full time to extract the sugars?

Thanks.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I always mash all the grains together. Maybe if you're doing a step mash with a lot of flaked wheat or something, you may mash the wheat first, then add the rest, but your grain bill is pretty typical of an all grain brew and all the grains can be mashed toghether.

 

[brycelarson]

They don't need conversion - some people add them later in order to keep the ph in a better range for the initial mash. I mash them all together.

 

[edsrockin]

sweet! thanks. it made no sense to me why it would need to be separated out. i will throw them all in at the same time then. appreciate the feedback!

 

[ArcaneXor]

This is Gordon Strong's method (I am sure many other people used it before him, but he's most well known for it), and it's purpose it to eliminate the need for calcium carbonate additions to buffer mash pH for porters and stouts, and produce a smoother roast character. I would imagine that it also creates a more dextrinous wort, since the enzymes can't modify the long-chain sugars in the crystal malts if they are not mashed (this would be an interesting experiment... - steeping crystal malts in water vs. water plus amylase enzyme added).

From what I have heard, it works great for fly sparging, but not as well for batch sparging, since with the latter method, the grains are only in contact with the sparge water for a few minutes, reducing flavor extraction.

Give it a try, or do a side-by-side, and use whatever you like more and whatever works best on your system. Just be aware that the recipes will probably need to be adjusted.

 

[bobbrews]

In the book, Brewing: Science and Practice, they mention how a separate mash and steep might be beneficial to help ensure full conversion of the unconverted grains and to prevent the FG from stalling later on. Normally, mashing unconverted and converted grains together is fine because the amount of converted grains are so minimal that we can happily ignore any issues associated with minimal unfermentability and unconverted starches from the base grain. But you're using roughly 2.5 lbs. (or about 20%) of speciality grains here, so it may be beneficial do to a separate mash and steep.

Another benefit of separating them is if your system is not capable of a large mash. That is, if you are unable to mash the full amount of grain at the mash ratio you intended to target.

Example: Mashing 12.75 lbs. of grain in a 1.5 liters water per 1 lb. grain ratio to equal 19.125 liters water.

If your system is not able to mash that much water/grain, then steeping the specialty grains in a kettle would save you 2.5 lbs. worth of displaced grain space and an additional 3.75 liters of mashing water.

 

[NivekD]

I have heard that adding the specialty grains later also creates a more complex taste to the beer. All at once gives it a more homogeneous taste.

 

[mabrungard]

In the case of that recipe, it appears that the intention is to use a low TDS water like RO or distilled in this partial mash. The malt extract provides some mineral content and is additional mineral content is NOT REQUIRED, but might be beneficial. With the dose of specialty malts, mashing all those grains together with that low TDS water might push the mash pH lower than desirable. Therefore, reserving the specialty malts can be a good way to avoid that. If this recipe was brewed with a more alkaline tap water, then it might be more advantageous to mash them all together.

 

[edsrockin]

good stuff folks. sooo appreciate the advice. it gives me something to consider, to be sure.

hey arcaneXor, i do a batch sparge, but it typically takes me close to an hour to empty the 5 gallon cooler, so would you think that this would work as effectively as a fly sparge considering that the grains are exposed to that 170* water for much more than 10 minutes?

again appreciate all the feedback. HBT rocks!

 

[daksin]

I would imagine that it also creates a more dextrinous wort, since the enzymes can't modify the long-chain sugars in the crystal malts if they are not mashed

Thanks for bringing this up, as it's often overlooked. If you do a search for "fermentability of crystal malts" or some such, you'll come up with a guy who did some extensive experiments that show clearly that mashing with crystal malts and base malt together increases the fermentability of the wort via the action of amylases on the already-converted sugars in the crystal. This is part of the reason extract brewers often experience higher FG when converting from an AG recipe.

 

[DonMagee]

Maybe not in this case, but another reason to not mash the grain is to limit the flavor it imparts. For example, in some black IPA recipes you will see them add the malts responsible for darkening the wort right before the sparge. This limits the roasted flavors that these grains would impart.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Maybe not in this case, but another reason to not mash the grain is to limit the flavor it imparts. For example, in some black IPA recipes you will see them add the malts responsible for darkening the wort right before the sparge. This limits the roasted flavors that these grains would impart.

It also makes for a smoother beer with less harshness/astringency if you add the dark grains after the mash or steep them after you collect the wort in the kettle.

 

[Matt3989]

awesome info in this post, good question edsrockin. And thanks for the info on this guys. I have a new porter in my "to brew" list, I might just have to bump it up and give this a shot

Although I batch sparge, do you think it would be better to stir the crystal malts in 15 prior to the end of the mash (therefore exposing it to the amalyse) or mash out and steep in the wort prior to the boil?

 

[jhoyda]

Does anybody think their palate is sensitive enough to taste 3.5 oz of Special B?

 

[bobbrews]

It's probably just a color adjustment, whereupon 2 oz. of roasted barley would be better for color and flavor.

 

[daksin]

awesome info in this post, good question edsrockin. And thanks for the info on this guys. I have a new porter in my "to brew" list, I might just have to bump it up and give this a shot

Although I batch sparge, do you think it would be better to stir the crystal malts in 15 prior to the end of the mash (therefore exposing it to the amalyse) or mash out and steep in the wort prior to the boil?

If you're batch sparging, you should probably mash everything together. This method was designed for continuous sparging, I believe.

 

[rklinck]

If you're batch sparging, you should probably mash everything together. This method was designed for continuous sparging, I believe.

After reading Gordon Strong's book I began to add my roast malts after the main mash. I do it to avoid the astringency that you can get from roast grains. I currently have a stout on tap that was my first using this method, and it is excellent.

I fly sparge, so I cannot say for sure that it would work for batch sparge, but I would imagine it would. I add the roast grains as I begin the vorlauf. By the time I finish the vorlauf, my wort has darkened to its final color. A batch sparge will have the entire vorlauf, the time it takes to drain the first runnings, and the 15 minutes or so of the sparge to extract from the roast griains. That should be plenty of time.

If I were doing a BIAB, I would probably add my roast malts in the last 10 minutes of the mash.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

awesome info in this post, good question edsrockin. And thanks for the info on this guys. I have a new porter in my "to brew" list, I might just have to bump it up and give this a shot

Although I batch sparge, do you think it would be better to stir the crystal malts in 15 prior to the end of the mash (therefore exposing it to the amalyse) or mash out and steep in the wort prior to the boil?

Most crystals you can just add to the mash, unless your goal is to try and avoid conversion (exposure to amylase). But if that's the case, you can just mash a little higher for a sweeter beer.

 

[bigdongsr94]

It seems the true difference here is mashing dark or light and where your pH is at. I always mash with my roasted or crystal to help lower my pH for my lighter ales. I want the dark malts to lower my pH. I guess if you were making a stout like what waste ruined then maybe your pH is real low but I have never had that issue with my situation. I am full volume BIAB tho so it takes a lot to sway my pH.

 

[ArcaneXor]

hey arcaneXor, i do a batch sparge, but it typically takes me close to an hour to empty the 5 gallon cooler, so would you think that this would work as effectively as a fly sparge considering that the grains are exposed to that 170* water for much more than 10 minutes?

I would imagine that would be fine.

 

[ArcaneXor]

It's probably just a color adjustment, whereupon 2 oz. of roasted barley would be better for color and flavor.

I agree with you 100%. Crystal malts should (at least in my book) be added for flavor, not color adjustment in most cases. 10 pounds of two row required a pound of C-120 to reach 14 SRM. Or you could use 3 oz of Black Roasted Barley. HUGE flavor difference between these two options. (14 SRM is just an example - not in reference to the recipe in the OP)