Why is batch sparging better/faster ?

[brewman !]

First, let me say, you're not getting an argument from me. I'm just trying to address some of your questions.

I appreciate that.

If you're fly sparging in 30 minutes, then it's not faster.

30 would be the minimum. A few minutes here or there isn't a big deal in the overall process.

But when I fly sparged in 30 minutes, my efficiency sucked. What about if you're doing a 10 gallon batch? Last weekend it took me < 30 minutes to batch sparge 13 gallons into the kettle.

Larger sparges shouldn't take longer. Its all a function of grain bed depth as far as I can figure out. A 12 inch deep 3 gallon sparge should take the same time as a 12" deep 12 gallon sparge.

Try that with fly sparging and let me know what kind of efficiency you get. Another thing - the first addition before the first runoff is essentially a mashout anyway, which a lot of people do regardless of fly/batch, so you can't count that against batch sparging.

OK. There are still an extra stir, settle, recirculate in the process. In a RIMS or HERM system, you don't have to stir to mashout and the recirculate is already done too. You just redirect the wort going back into the the mash vessel to into the boil kettle. And throttle it back, I think.

Is it easier? Debatable. I always felt like I was constantly fiddling with things to match the flows between the HLT and the MLT.

Just set the MLT flow so that it will take 30-40 minutes to drain and then just keep the water level above the bed. If people wanted to, they could use a small float operated valve. $25 and it would be totally automated !

And if you let the grain bed compact while fly sparging, you WILL get a stuck sparge.

I've NEVER had a stuck sparge, save when the plastic braid I accidentally used collapsed. Now how does one "let a grain bed compact" ? Do you mean run dry ?

How much does the water in your HLT cool during a 45 min sparge?

Very little. Its on the stove if I want to heat it up.

What about the pH of your sparge towards the end.

Pretreat with gypsum. I think it results in a better beer with either method. I strongly suspect that flooding the MLT with a bunch of untreated water during a batch sparge isn't good either.

Probably the biggest factor: Batch sparging is certainly more forgiving on what kind of equip. you're using. A lot of guys here use manifolds and braids in a cooler - wouldn't work so well with fly sparging.

I think either will work fine as long as they decently cover the floor area of the MLT. My braid seemed to work really well. My last cooler had a combo false bottom/manifold.

All I can say is I can do either with my setup (keg w/ false bottom) and I've tried both. It's very doubtful I'll ever bother fly sparging again. I LIKE batch sparging and it works.

Ales or lagers ? Maybe I'll try it on my next batch.

 

[brewman !]

you don't have to buy or build the tricky sparge arm

Just use a piece of perforated tinfoil and gently run the sparge water onto it.

 

[ayrton]

Just use a piece of perforated tinfoil and gently run the sparge water onto it.

Sorry, I don't have the time for that.

 

[ayrton]

If it tastes good when I'm done, to hell with efficiency.

If my efficiency is good when I'm done, to hell with taste.

 

[the_bird]

It's not that I couldn't handle fly sparging, or that I think it's really difficult, or some insurmountable challenge - but there's no way to argue that batch sparging is more difficult. There are simply far fewer variables to work with.

Doesn't mean that fly spargers need to "come over to the dark side" - hell, I'm thinking about trying to fly sparge at some point for the hell of it - but the simple fact that you need to think about things like adding more heat to the HLT and treating the water with gypsum and making devices out of tinfoil means that there is more going on, more stuff to think about. Doesn't make it bad, but I don't see any argument for fly sparging being SIMPLER.

 

[voodoochild7]

So what is dead space now and how do I account for it?

 

[Orfy]

Dead space is the area at the bottom that you can not drain.

Account for it? Use more sparge water and try to keep the manifold/pick up as low as possible.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

I use brewsmith for all my calculations. It tells me how much water to add at each step and hasn't failed me yet. I set my brewhouse efficiency at 70% and often get just above what the program calculated for 70% efficiency brews.

I'm not an efficiency nut. I don't care if I have to use a little extra grain to compensate for not having an 87% eff.

If it tastes good when I'm done, to hell with efficiency.

Ah, I see. You really are taking some measurements to tell. It just sounded like you weren't.

No more hand calculation by me, either. I let BeerSmith do all the work.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Brewman, I get what you're saying. There's no black/white answer with this one. Just do what works for you. It doesn't have to be a religious discussion.

BTW - I meant I can do (and have done) both fly or batch sparging with my system.

 

[Todd]

I didn't say it didn't work and I understand stand that people like it.

I'm not trying to persuade people to do one or the other. I don't care what people do. I want to understand the claims behind each method. For batch sparging I hear things like simpler, faster, easier, etc. I don't understand those claims ! Is it really simpler ? Is it really faster ? Yes, I am challenging the homebrew collective wisdom !

I'll repeat the question: what makes batch sparging faster or easier ? When I look at the batch sparging process, I don't think it would be <much> faster and I certainly don't think it would be less work. So please tell me where I am wrong.

For me it was cheap and easy to do batch sparge. I think I spent about $15 total and I was comfortable doing it. I don't think I have any other reason. Do I need one?

I didn't want to deal with sparge arms, or water level or any of that stuff.

 

[sause]

First off man you are pissing some people off here. Don't ask a question, and then try to belittle people for answering your question. I'm not going to argue about which one is better, that has been said that it is a perefrence. Batch sparge is faster because you don't have to worry about channeling as much as you do with fly. Channeling makes more water to flow through a certain part of the grain bed than an other and when you are trying to extract sugers out of all the grain these will kill your effort. Channeling with fly will kill your efficiency, batch gets around this with stirring. The stirring will also force the new sparge water into the grains and there fore force sugars out. Letting it sit is just there to help settle the grain bed for filtering. When people say easier they mean the same way that all grain is harder than extract. In all grain you just have more things to worry about same holds true in batch vs fly. As for the compacted grain bed I never had any trouble with batch. In this case channeling helps with batch, we drain so fast that channel will occur, these channels will force the husks to the side and not allow a stuck sparge, and since water will find it way to level we don't need to worry about leaving a bunch in the mash tun.

To let you know my next system will be set up to fly so I'm on the fly boat but I see why people batch. And if your system is set up for fly it can also do batch.

 

[brewman !]

First off man you are pissing some people off here. Don't ask a question, and then try to belittle people for answering your question.

Sorry for debating the question of batch versus fly ! But some of the replies here are not part of that debate, they are commentary on what people use. That's fine in another post, but in this post I wanted to examine some of the facts regarding the two processes.

People constantly throw around batch is better this and fly is better that and I think this discussion is showing us that it isn't nearly like that. Half the reasons given here are BS.

It isn't about being right or wrong or convincing someone to use something else. Its about getting the facts straight. Understand ?

At one point in time everyone thought fly sparging was THE only way. That was obviously WRONG. What other misconceptions do we have about sparging ?

I'll drop it.

 

[brewman !]

Last comment.

but the simple fact that you need to think about things like adding more heat to the HLT

The HLT sits for about the same time whether batch or fly sparging, so this is irrelevant.

and treating the water with gypsum

Good idea either way. Read Dave Miller.

and making devices out of tinfoil

Take a piece of tinfoil 6x10, for my MLT anyway. Take a pin and poke some holes in it. When you are ready to sparge, lay it on the grain bed. No big deal. At the end of the mash, wash it and put it in the MLT for use next time.

means that there is more going on, more stuff to think about. Doesn't make it bad, but I don't see any argument for fly sparging being SIMPLER.

No stirring, no recirculating, nothing. Just add water. How hard is that ?

The REAL issue for me with batch sparging is the quality of the product. I suspect that fly sparging delivers a cleaner wort due to better bed filtering and I wonder about diluting the mash and extracting tannins with batch sparging. But we'll leave those issues undiscussed .

It strikes me as odd that we could have two processes so different as batch and fly sparging and that we would get exactly the same results from both.

 

[sause]

Sorry for debating the question of batch versus fly.

That wasn't your question.

But people throw around batch is better this and fly is better that and I think this discussion is showing us that it isn't nearly like that. Half the reasons given here are BS.

No all the reasons talked about here have valid points its just that you are to thick skulled to listen to them.

It isn't about being right or wrong or convincing someone to use something else. Its about getting the facts straight. Understand ?

WOW!! You might actually gotten something from this 40+ post thread. By the way you are a hypocrite, you were the one blasting holes into batch sparging and then you say this?

At one point in time everyone thought fly sparging was THE only way. That was obviously WRONG. What other misconceptions do we have about sparging ?

Fly was the only way to do it years ago. Batch sparging just came on to the scene within 5 years.

 

[Blktre]

This thread cracks me up.......There are a few well informed posts here. But for the record, how many of you guys posting on this subject have mastered both techniques? And trying something once or twice isnt mastering. Id be interested in that. Because there are alot of uninformed generic typical forum statements thruout this thread. Things like fly sparging takes more equipment, time, for the same or less eff. Or things like the grainbed needs to be stirred between batch sparges. This stuff sounds like things that have been read and carried over from hearsay w/o any practical experience...

 

[Orfy]

And another thing............


Sorry just thought I'd try and be the last poster before this gets closed.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

And another thing............


Sorry just thoughte I'd try and be the last poster before this gets closed.

C'mon orfy, this party's just getting started.

 

[olllllo]

This thread cracks me up.......There are a few well informed posts here. But for the record, how many of you guys posting on this subject have mastered both techniques? And trying something once or twice isnt mastering. Id be interested in that. Because there are alot of uninformed generic typical forum statements thruout this thread. Things like fly sparging takes more equipment, time, for the same or less eff. Or things like the grainbed needs to be stirred between batch sparges. This stuff sounds like things that have been read and carried over from hearsay w/o any practical experience...

That some have not mastered (IYO) and found a method that they find to be easy and fast, should those people not have an opinion?

Rhetorical.

 

[olllllo]

Full disclosure:

I've done neither, but I can see argument for argument sake here.

 

[FlyGuy]

This thread cracks me up.......There are a few well informed posts here. But for the record, how many of you guys posting on this subject have mastered both techniques? And trying something once or twice isnt mastering. Id be interested in that. Because there are alot of uninformed generic typical forum statements thruout this thread. Things like fly sparging takes more equipment, time, for the same or less eff. Or things like the grainbed needs to be stirred between batch sparges. This stuff sounds like things that have been read and carried over from hearsay w/o any practical experience...

Yep, I have to agree.

After reading this entire post, I still don't see many clear reasons why batch sparging is necessarily better than fly sparging. I am actually starting to question some of these things that I assumed were true from reading books. I think what would help best is to hear from people that have first-hand experience with BOTH techniques. It is really hard to provide a good answer to this question based on only knowing one or the other. Can some of the more senior brewers on this site who are more likely to have experience with both methods chime in???

 

[FlyGuy]

That some have not mastered (IYO) and found a method that they find to be easy and fast, should those people not have an opinion?

Rhetorical.

Ah, but now you have a different issue at hand -- should opinion be as valuable as real knowledge!!!! They aren't always the same thing.....

 

[olllllo]

I'm saying a beginning brewer's opinion that one method over another is easier to grasp. That opinion is clearly in the purview of that person. One who has mastered both techniques may no longer have the ability to go back to his beginner shoes.

 

[the_bird]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Wow, awesome read. Just spent quite some time in front of this thread. I'll say one thing. I didn't know what batch sparging was this morning, but there is no way I'm sitting over my MLT and gently sprinkling water in again.... my sparge water was getting cold, and I was REAL worried about channels.

Batch sparging.. here I come!

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Just for the record, everything I stated was from personal experience. I wouldn't say I've "mastered" either, but I have "been around that track" with both.

Just curious Blktre, have you mastered both? And I appreciate all of your constructive comments you added to the discussion.

 

[the_bird]

Wow, awesome read. Just spent quite some time in front of this thread. I'll say one thing. I didn't know what batch sparging was this morning, but there is no way I'm sitting over my MLT and gently sprinkling water in again.... my sparge water was getting cold, and I was REAL worried about channels.

Batch sparging.. here I come!

Welcome to the dark side! :rockin:

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

I haven't been on this forum long, but I've noticed that the_bird plus the list you provided + orfy have posted threads and replies that I've read that have been INVALUABLE to my picking up of this brewing hobby....

 

[Orfy]

Well I'm honoured to be hung off the end of the list.
The bird doesn't respect me as a brewer, he just ribs me.

 

[the_bird]

I would have put you on that list, I just wanted to look at the very beginning...

(and I had to put Cheyco on there in case he comes in here and starts throwing his Mod-ship around)...

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Well I'm honoured to be hung off the end of the list.
The bird doesn't respect me as a brewer, he just ribs me.

I'm just happy to be hung...

 

[Orfy]

I would have put you on that list, I just wanted to look at the very beginning...

(and I had to put Cheyco on there in case he comes in here and starts throwing his Mod-ship around)...

Yeh right.

 

[EdWort]

OK, here's the final word in typical EAC style.

Batch Sparging is the best method BECAUSE that's what I do.

What more scientific reasoning do you need? :cross:

 

[the_bird]

The bird doesn't respect me as a brewer, he just ribs me.

Yes, Orfy, you're my rib.

 

[desiderata]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

Bird, you've got some brown stuff on your nose--might want to wipe that off.

I actually enjoyed reading the debate, and I learned a lot from it. I'm not into AG yet, but before reading this, I didn't know the diff. btw the two sparging methods. So, for those of you who just comment that "I batch sparge because it's easier and it's what I've been doing, so there!", and then complain about the OP being confrontational or stubborn, then lighten up. I learned nothing from those posts. I did appreciate those who posted and explained in details the reasons why they like one way over the other.

As an observer, it seems that there is too much sensitivity with brewing styles here on the forum. If someone asks why one style is better and also defends his own style, but asks follow-up questions, then don't take it personally. Knowledge is power, well... Others will get much more out of a response that explains one's method or answers specific questions that were brought up, over posts that just try to end the discussion with acquiescense for their method.

So, to keep the discussion going, if you are offended by any posts on here, please don't post again or read them in the future, and let the constructive fly/batch sparge debate continue.

Joke: Our enemy here is BMC/Mr. Beer/Hooch, lets not fight amongst ourselves.

 

[Blktre]

Just for the record, everything I stated was from personal experience. I wouldn't say I've "mastered" either, but I have "been around that track" with both.

Just curious Blktre, have you mastered both? And I appreciate all of your constructive comments you added to the discussion.

To start off, the main thing is to find a technique your happy with. You like the results, then its a good one.....
Sparky, i can say Yes, i feel ive mastered both techniques or variations of both and pushed my brewing abilities and equipment to be able to say that. Im not saying im god or nothing like that, but ive always pushed different methods to see for myself....

Heres my take on it....
My equipment is a 1/2 barrel HLT/HERMS, 48 and 60qt IceCube MT rigged w/ copper manifolds and i use either a keggle or my 25g SS Kettle. I use a pump on a 2tier w/ the HLT up high. Ive used braids, FB's in coolers and keg MT's.

Batching will take up some extra room for water and getting 2 batches is the way to go if you can do it. Theres no need to stir the bed in between batches. My eff. stirring or not stirring resulted in the same and that was in the high 70's to low 80's. So just varlouf once and i think you will be happy. A 10g batch should take around 30 min. to vorlauf and get your preboil vol. But, ive never gotten crystal clear wort to the kettle doing this.
Also, i had to wait longer to get the preboil vol. up to a boil. So that time needs to be considered. And my gravity never dipped below 1.015, no tannin concerns.

Fly sparging really needs to take into account the tun geometry. So i prefer a manifold per John Palmer. A braid wont cut it, it will channel. Manifold and braid cost about the same to build. I can replace water for batching w/ grain, so i can get more in there. Once the In and Out is set, i can still get 13.5g preboil in the kettle in about 35 min. w/ eff. of 80%. Same as batching. As the wort hits the kettle, i light the fire. When i reach my preboil vol. im already boiling. No waiting like batching.

I like recirculating systems. Once i dough in, im heating sparge water. With about 45-60 minutes into the mash i recir. for 10 min. to get crystal clear wort and hit mashouts at the same time. This cuts down on my time as well because i can convert, set the bed up as a filter to get the crystal clear wort, and hit mashout. I never get stuck even pulling w/ a pump. You will need to check gravity towards the end for tannin extraction, but my system is down so good, its almost a waste of time.
I know folks cant do this, but ive found the technique to work well.

But even at that, varlouf should take about the same amount of time w/o a pump. The big difference in time i think is waiting on a preboil vol. to reach a full boil after sparging or already boiling by the end of the sparge.....

I can think of some more, but thats a quickie......ive found in my experience.....

 

[olllllo]

I really don't think anyone on either side is saying better. Only faster and/or easier.

Edit: OP asked for better/faster.

 

[FlyGuy]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

Yep, get no arguments from me there. I haven't been here long, but I have quickly learned which opinions to trust, and you and these four all stand out.

I guess what I was really saying was, I wish I knew who actually has experience with BOTH techniques.

 

[the_bird]

Fair enough, blktre, but I'll disagree with two points:

Braid cost me $7; manifold will be a lot more than that based on copper costs.

It only takes 10-15 minutes to bring the kettle to boil after I'm done batch sparging (210k BTUs helps). I could cut that down further if I reconfigued my setup to begin heating the first runnings immediately - no reason I couldn't do that except I've been mashing in the kitchen for convenience.

 

[the_bird]

Yep, get no arguments from me there. I haven't been here long, but I have quickly learned which opinions to trust, and you and these four all stand out.

Jesus Christ, don't put me in with them.

Here's the ultimate answer to why batch sparging is so easy - HELL, *I* WAS ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT!

 

[the_bird]

I really don't think anyone on either side is saying better. Only faster and/or easier.

Edit: OP asked for better/faster.

Wrong.

I'm a fly sparger. I don't understand a number of things about batch sparging. I hear frequent claims that its faster and easier, but I don't understand why. Could someone explain this to me.

I would never argue that batch sparging is BETTER, because "better" is so subjective. I happen to view its ease and speed as the most important factors, whereas it is perfectly reasonable for others to view potentially better efficiency and potentially clearer wort as making fly sparging "better."

However, this post is not (at least originally) about which is BETTER, which may be why people are getting a bit touchy.