Why is batch sparging better/faster ?

[FlyGuy]

That some have not mastered (IYO) and found a method that they find to be easy and fast, should those people not have an opinion?

Rhetorical.

Ah, but now you have a different issue at hand -- should opinion be as valuable as real knowledge!!!! They aren't always the same thing.....

 

[olllllo]

I'm saying a beginning brewer's opinion that one method over another is easier to grasp. That opinion is clearly in the purview of that person. One who has mastered both techniques may no longer have the ability to go back to his beginner shoes.

 

[the_bird]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Wow, awesome read. Just spent quite some time in front of this thread. I'll say one thing. I didn't know what batch sparging was this morning, but there is no way I'm sitting over my MLT and gently sprinkling water in again.... my sparge water was getting cold, and I was REAL worried about channels.

Batch sparging.. here I come!

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Just for the record, everything I stated was from personal experience. I wouldn't say I've "mastered" either, but I have "been around that track" with both.

Just curious Blktre, have you mastered both? And I appreciate all of your constructive comments you added to the discussion.

 

[the_bird]

Wow, awesome read. Just spent quite some time in front of this thread. I'll say one thing. I didn't know what batch sparging was this morning, but there is no way I'm sitting over my MLT and gently sprinkling water in again.... my sparge water was getting cold, and I was REAL worried about channels.

Batch sparging.. here I come!

Welcome to the dark side! :rockin:

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

I haven't been on this forum long, but I've noticed that the_bird plus the list you provided + orfy have posted threads and replies that I've read that have been INVALUABLE to my picking up of this brewing hobby....

 

[Orfy]

Well I'm honoured to be hung off the end of the list.
The bird doesn't respect me as a brewer, he just ribs me.

 

[the_bird]

I would have put you on that list, I just wanted to look at the very beginning...

(and I had to put Cheyco on there in case he comes in here and starts throwing his Mod-ship around)...

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Well I'm honoured to be hung off the end of the list.
The bird doesn't respect me as a brewer, he just ribs me.

I'm just happy to be hung...

 

[Orfy]

I would have put you on that list, I just wanted to look at the very beginning...

(and I had to put Cheyco on there in case he comes in here and starts throwing his Mod-ship around)...

Yeh right.

 

[EdWort]

OK, here's the final word in typical EAC style.

Batch Sparging is the best method BECAUSE that's what I do.

What more scientific reasoning do you need? :cross:

 

[the_bird]

The bird doesn't respect me as a brewer, he just ribs me.

Yes, Orfy, you're my rib.

 

[desiderata]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

Bird, you've got some brown stuff on your nose--might want to wipe that off.

I actually enjoyed reading the debate, and I learned a lot from it. I'm not into AG yet, but before reading this, I didn't know the diff. btw the two sparging methods. So, for those of you who just comment that "I batch sparge because it's easier and it's what I've been doing, so there!", and then complain about the OP being confrontational or stubborn, then lighten up. I learned nothing from those posts. I did appreciate those who posted and explained in details the reasons why they like one way over the other.

As an observer, it seems that there is too much sensitivity with brewing styles here on the forum. If someone asks why one style is better and also defends his own style, but asks follow-up questions, then don't take it personally. Knowledge is power, well... Others will get much more out of a response that explains one's method or answers specific questions that were brought up, over posts that just try to end the discussion with acquiescense for their method.

So, to keep the discussion going, if you are offended by any posts on here, please don't post again or read them in the future, and let the constructive fly/batch sparge debate continue.

Joke: Our enemy here is BMC/Mr. Beer/Hooch, lets not fight amongst ourselves.

 

[Blktre]

Just for the record, everything I stated was from personal experience. I wouldn't say I've "mastered" either, but I have "been around that track" with both.

Just curious Blktre, have you mastered both? And I appreciate all of your constructive comments you added to the discussion.

To start off, the main thing is to find a technique your happy with. You like the results, then its a good one.....
Sparky, i can say Yes, i feel ive mastered both techniques or variations of both and pushed my brewing abilities and equipment to be able to say that. Im not saying im god or nothing like that, but ive always pushed different methods to see for myself....

Heres my take on it....
My equipment is a 1/2 barrel HLT/HERMS, 48 and 60qt IceCube MT rigged w/ copper manifolds and i use either a keggle or my 25g SS Kettle. I use a pump on a 2tier w/ the HLT up high. Ive used braids, FB's in coolers and keg MT's.

Batching will take up some extra room for water and getting 2 batches is the way to go if you can do it. Theres no need to stir the bed in between batches. My eff. stirring or not stirring resulted in the same and that was in the high 70's to low 80's. So just varlouf once and i think you will be happy. A 10g batch should take around 30 min. to vorlauf and get your preboil vol. But, ive never gotten crystal clear wort to the kettle doing this.
Also, i had to wait longer to get the preboil vol. up to a boil. So that time needs to be considered. And my gravity never dipped below 1.015, no tannin concerns.

Fly sparging really needs to take into account the tun geometry. So i prefer a manifold per John Palmer. A braid wont cut it, it will channel. Manifold and braid cost about the same to build. I can replace water for batching w/ grain, so i can get more in there. Once the In and Out is set, i can still get 13.5g preboil in the kettle in about 35 min. w/ eff. of 80%. Same as batching. As the wort hits the kettle, i light the fire. When i reach my preboil vol. im already boiling. No waiting like batching.

I like recirculating systems. Once i dough in, im heating sparge water. With about 45-60 minutes into the mash i recir. for 10 min. to get crystal clear wort and hit mashouts at the same time. This cuts down on my time as well because i can convert, set the bed up as a filter to get the crystal clear wort, and hit mashout. I never get stuck even pulling w/ a pump. You will need to check gravity towards the end for tannin extraction, but my system is down so good, its almost a waste of time.
I know folks cant do this, but ive found the technique to work well.

But even at that, varlouf should take about the same amount of time w/o a pump. The big difference in time i think is waiting on a preboil vol. to reach a full boil after sparging or already boiling by the end of the sparge.....

I can think of some more, but thats a quickie......ive found in my experience.....

 

[olllllo]

I really don't think anyone on either side is saying better. Only faster and/or easier.

Edit: OP asked for better/faster.

 

[FlyGuy]

The first four people who responded immediately after me - Cheyco, David, EdWort, and Bugeater - are four people that I have tremendous respect for as brewers. All were strong supporters of the idea that batch sparging is faster and easier. What else are you looking for?

Yep, get no arguments from me there. I haven't been here long, but I have quickly learned which opinions to trust, and you and these four all stand out.

I guess what I was really saying was, I wish I knew who actually has experience with BOTH techniques.

 

[the_bird]

Fair enough, blktre, but I'll disagree with two points:

Braid cost me $7; manifold will be a lot more than that based on copper costs.

It only takes 10-15 minutes to bring the kettle to boil after I'm done batch sparging (210k BTUs helps). I could cut that down further if I reconfigued my setup to begin heating the first runnings immediately - no reason I couldn't do that except I've been mashing in the kitchen for convenience.

 

[the_bird]

Yep, get no arguments from me there. I haven't been here long, but I have quickly learned which opinions to trust, and you and these four all stand out.

Jesus Christ, don't put me in with them.

Here's the ultimate answer to why batch sparging is so easy - HELL, *I* WAS ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT!

 

[the_bird]

I really don't think anyone on either side is saying better. Only faster and/or easier.

Edit: OP asked for better/faster.

Wrong.

I'm a fly sparger. I don't understand a number of things about batch sparging. I hear frequent claims that its faster and easier, but I don't understand why. Could someone explain this to me.

I would never argue that batch sparging is BETTER, because "better" is so subjective. I happen to view its ease and speed as the most important factors, whereas it is perfectly reasonable for others to view potentially better efficiency and potentially clearer wort as making fly sparging "better."

However, this post is not (at least originally) about which is BETTER, which may be why people are getting a bit touchy.

 

[EdWort]

I could cut that down further if I reconfigued my setup to begin heating the first runnings immediately - no reason I couldn't do that except I've been mashing in the kitchen for convenience.

I'm a kitchen masher too, till I graduate to 10 gallon batches. The little one heats my MTL Cooler preheat water and the big one is a 7 gallon cheapo for mash & sparge water.

The runnings go into a heavy duty 8 gallon turkey fryer kettle.

Hmmmm Good. I can't wait to do a Kolsch this weekend.

 

[jezter6]

Ah, I see. You really are taking some measurements to tell. It just sounded like you weren't.

No more hand calculation by me, either. I let BeerSmith do all the work.

I don't calculate efficiency. I set brewsmith, and if I get close, I call it a day. Yes, I take a hydrometer reading before I boil, just to see how close I got. If'n I'm a bit over, then I smile. If I'm a bit under, I smile and say this is going to be .3% weaker than I thought...oh well.

I will say, from a newbie point of view (ie: 12-15 batches total, only 3-5 being AG): I do think batch sparging is as simple as it gets. How hard can it be to pour water into a cooler with some grain and let it sit an hour, drain it and pour more water in?

I don't open the thing up to stir. I stir when I put the grains in at the beginning, and I stir when I put the sparge water in. Then the sparge sits for 15 minutes and I drain it.

Hell, I don't bother vorlaufing either. I put a nice grain bag on the end of my hose to catch anything that comes out, the rest goes right into the brewpot.

Now, setting up a sparge arm (or suitable tinfoil substitue), regulating water flow, hoping against channeling, etc, etc...it's definately not easier than: Pour water in, let sit, pour water out. It's also not that much harder either.

I've never fly sparged, so I don't know how long it takes, but I'm sure it's about the same in the end. The only difference is a little bit less equipment to batch.

In the end, if 2 brewers mash with the same grains, and come out within .005 of each other, then neither one is better.

 

[brewman !]

Fly sparging really needs to take into account the tun geometry. So i prefer a manifold per John Palmer. A braid wont cut it, it will channel.

If the braid covers the same path in the bottom of the MLT as a manifold would, why wouldn't it work ?

I don't trust peoples OPINIONS. I like facts and I like to think for myself. No apologies for that !

If I listened to people about steam mashing, I never would have tried it !

BTW: it was news to me that some batch spargers don't remix the mash. Thanks for posting that. Next time I mash, I am going to to do the fly batch sparge method. I'll fill the MLT up, let it sit for 5 minutes and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. That sounds even easier than fly sparging because I wouldn't have to watch the water levels at all. I learned something today because of this thread.

 

[Blktre]

Fair enough, blktre, but I'll disagree with two points:

Braid cost me $7; manifold will be a lot more than that based on copper costs.

It only takes 10-15 minutes to bring the kettle to boil after I'm done batch sparging (210k BTUs helps). I could cut that down further if I reconfigued my setup to begin heating the first runnings immediately - no reason I couldn't do that except I've been mashing in the kitchen for convenience.

Yea, the price of copper has skyrocketed. A guy could always us CPVC, tons cheaper. Nothing against a braid, but unless you get enuff of it to use the Tun geometry, your stuck batching. Theres no room for expansion etc. So the few extra bucks of copper for versatility is worth to me....

As far as time is concerned, we just crossed each other out on your 10-15 min. waiting to boil time. I dont wait for that. So if fly sparging takes longer, it just evened itself out right there. So time cannot be a reason of debate......

You using the Banjo or the Kick A burner? Nice aint it?!

 

[brewman !]

As far as time is concerned, we just crossed each other out on your 10-15 min. waiting to boil time. I dont wait for that. So if fly sparging takes longer, it just evened itself out right there. So time cannot be a reason of debate......

That is exactly the sort of discussion I am looking for. Carry on...

 

[Blktre]

If the braid covers the same path in the bottom of the MLT as a manifold would, why wouldn't it work ?

I don't trust peoples OPINIONS. I like facts and I like to think for myself. No apologies for that !

If I listened to people about steam mashing, I never would have tried it !

BTW: it was news to me that some batch spargers don't remix the mash. Thanks for posting that. Next time I mash, I am going to to do the fly batch sparge method. I'll fill the MLT up, let it sit for 5 minutes and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. That sounds even easier than fly sparging because I wouldn't have to watch the water levels at all. I learned something today because of this thread.

Im the same as you bro..screw opinions, go and figure the daym thing out on your own!
I may be speaking w/you about your steam mash. Im currently in a 2.5 barrel brewery build and stuck on heat maintaining or stepping techniques. Steam injection is in the toolbox...

Oh, i dont think its necessary to wait after adding a batch sparge. Glad you brought that up because i remember that my eff. was not effected if i waited and stirred or didnt stir and didnt wait, just let er rip. Somebody else may have a different experience than me because of other factors such as different equipment, water chemistry, grist crush....

 

[jezter6]

BTW: it was news to me that some batch spargers don't remix the mash. Thanks for posting that. Next time I mash, I am going to to do the fly batch sparge method. I'll fill the MLT up, let it sit for 5 minutes and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. That sounds even easier than fly sparging because I wouldn't have to watch the water levels at all. I learned something today because of this thread.

Not sure if this was me, but I mix it with the water addition. I don't know if you'll get enough mix just filling it and draining. I haven't tried it though. I know that when I pour 3-5 gallons of 168F sparge water into the tun it stirs the crap out if, but then I just flip the pot over and let gravity do it's thing. If you're going to use a fly arm and wait to fill up over the grain bed without a stir at that point, I think you may get some clumps that are not washed by your sparge.

It's at least something to try, as I have no empirical evidence to prove it wrong. It just doesn't sound like it will be efficient.

 

[Blktre]

Ill never stir my mash after i recir. and get the bed set. I still get 80% eff. and the wort is crystal clear hitting the kettle. You keep stirring, and you can forget about crystal clear wort w/o recir. again and again........

As far as clumps go, sounds like you need to dough in better. Get a decent mash paddle that breaks up clumps when doughing in. Im sure this would effect your eff. in a negative way.

 

[brewman !]

I really like the sounds of batch sparging without disturbing the bed. That has the potential to be faster and even simpler.

I could program an automated system to do that as well. Pump water into the MLT until it full, then open a valve and drain it. Pretty simple.

No recirculating, no stirring.

I'll test it on my next batch.

 

[t-dogg]

after reading all this I don't know which method I use. I mash @ 1.25 Qts per lb.
Heat 5.5 gals sparge water to 170 add a gal. or so.volauf. when clear I add more water.sparge. Add a gal or 2 of water making sure to keep above grain bed. Until I have desired amt. of wort. I never stir after mash in. I usually use lhbs recipes and get better og's than they call for I dont know what eff. they use .I like simple and fast I usually sparge for about 1 hr