Why is batch sparging better/faster ?

[olllllo]

Somethings aren't meant for everyone. Time to accept it and move on.

 

[Orfy]

People who do batch sparging do it because they like it, want to and it works for them. If you're happy with fly sparging then by all means stick with it.

It all makes sense to those doing it.

 

[brewman !]

People who do batch sparging do it because they like it, want to and it works for them

I didn't say it didn't work and I understand stand that people like it.

I'm not trying to persuade people to do one or the other. I don't care what people do. I want to understand the claims behind each method. For batch sparging I hear things like simpler, faster, easier, etc. I don't understand those claims ! Is it really simpler ? Is it really faster ? Yes, I am challenging the homebrew collective wisdom !

I'll repeat the question: what makes batch sparging faster or easier ? When I look at the batch sparging process, I don't think it would be <much> faster and I certainly don't think it would be less work. So please tell me where I am wrong.

 

[brewman !]

This has to do with how the sugars are extracted from the grains. In a fly sparge, the water and grain remain close in sugar concentration, which is why you have to sparge very slowly. In a batch sparge, once you drain the initial runoff (which you know already has a high sugar concentration) you add back water with no sugar. This allows the remaining sugars to easily "flow" into the water, quickly reaching equilibrium.

Let me think about this.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

I didn't say it didn't work and I understand stand that people like it.

I'm not trying to persuade people to do one or the other. I don't care what people do. I want to understand the claims behind each method. For batch sparging I hear things like simpler, faster, easier, etc. I don't understand those claims ! Is it really simpler ? Is it really faster ? Yes, I am challenging the homebrew collective wisdom !

I'll repeat the question: what makes batch sparging faster or easier ? When I look at the batch sparging process, I don't think it would be <much> faster and I certainly don't think it would be less work. So please tell me where I am wrong.

First, let me say, you're not getting an argument from me. I'm just trying to address some of your questions.

If you're fly sparging in 30 minutes, then it's not faster. But when I fly sparged in 30 minutes, my efficiency sucked. What about if you're doing a 10 gallon batch? Last weekend it took me < 30 minutes to batch sparge 13 gallons into the kettle. Try that with fly sparging and let me know what kind of efficiency you get. Another thing - the first addition before the first runoff is essentially a mashout anyway, which a lot of people do regardless of fly/batch, so you can't count that against batch sparging.

Is it easier? Debatable. I always felt like I was constantly fiddling with things to match the flows between the HLT and the MLT. And if you let the grain bed compact while fly sparging, you WILL get a stuck sparge. How much does the water in your HLT cool during a 45 min sparge? What about the pH of your sparge towards the end. All of these things really aren't an issue with batch sparging. So again, it's probably a matter of how you define easier.

Probably the biggest factor: Batch sparging is certainly more forgiving on what kind of equip. you're using. A lot of guys here use manifolds and braids in a cooler - wouldn't work so well with fly sparging.

If it works for you, cool. Stick with it and make great beer.

All I can say is I can do either with my setup (keg w/ false bottom) and I've tried both. It's very doubtful I'll ever bother fly sparging again. I LIKE batch sparging and it works.

Cheers.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

BTW brewman, have you tried batch sparging before? You might want to give it a try once and decide for yourself. It certainly won't screw up your beer, and it would make for an interesting brew day.

 

[ayrton]

I'll repeat the question: what makes batch sparging faster or easier ? When I look at the batch sparging process, I don't think it would be <much> faster and I certainly don't think it would be less work. So please tell me where I am wrong.

I've never done fly sparging, but with batch sparging, you don't have to buy or build the tricky sparge arm. Dump, stir, wait, run off. Even if you're assuming that batch and fly sparging are equally difficult/time consuming, then batch sparging wins (to me) because of less work up front.

 

[Orfy]

I've never done fly sparging, but with batch sparging, you don't have to buy or build the tricky sparge arm. Dump, stir, wait, run off. Even if you're assuming that batch and fly sparging are equally difficult/time consuming, then batch sparging wins (to me) because of less work up front.

That my friend is a null answer for this thread. You need to provide some proof as to why for the answer to be valid.

 

[fifelee]

Getting down to the nitty gritty minute details...I love this brew board.

 

[jezter6]

I don't want to knock you jester, but if you don't check, how do you know? And if you did check, you might find that equal runoffs might get you a little better effeciency...

I use brewsmith for all my calculations. It tells me how much water to add at each step and hasn't failed me yet. I set my brewhouse efficiency at 70% and often get just above what the program calculated for 70% efficiency brews.

I'm not an efficiency nut. I don't care if I have to use a little extra grain to compensate for not having an 87% eff.

If it tastes good when I'm done, to hell with efficiency.

 

[brewman !]

First, let me say, you're not getting an argument from me. I'm just trying to address some of your questions.

I appreciate that.

If you're fly sparging in 30 minutes, then it's not faster.

30 would be the minimum. A few minutes here or there isn't a big deal in the overall process.

But when I fly sparged in 30 minutes, my efficiency sucked. What about if you're doing a 10 gallon batch? Last weekend it took me < 30 minutes to batch sparge 13 gallons into the kettle.

Larger sparges shouldn't take longer. Its all a function of grain bed depth as far as I can figure out. A 12 inch deep 3 gallon sparge should take the same time as a 12" deep 12 gallon sparge.

Try that with fly sparging and let me know what kind of efficiency you get. Another thing - the first addition before the first runoff is essentially a mashout anyway, which a lot of people do regardless of fly/batch, so you can't count that against batch sparging.

OK. There are still an extra stir, settle, recirculate in the process. In a RIMS or HERM system, you don't have to stir to mashout and the recirculate is already done too. You just redirect the wort going back into the the mash vessel to into the boil kettle. And throttle it back, I think.

Is it easier? Debatable. I always felt like I was constantly fiddling with things to match the flows between the HLT and the MLT.

Just set the MLT flow so that it will take 30-40 minutes to drain and then just keep the water level above the bed. If people wanted to, they could use a small float operated valve. $25 and it would be totally automated !

And if you let the grain bed compact while fly sparging, you WILL get a stuck sparge.

I've NEVER had a stuck sparge, save when the plastic braid I accidentally used collapsed. Now how does one "let a grain bed compact" ? Do you mean run dry ?

How much does the water in your HLT cool during a 45 min sparge?

Very little. Its on the stove if I want to heat it up.

What about the pH of your sparge towards the end.

Pretreat with gypsum. I think it results in a better beer with either method. I strongly suspect that flooding the MLT with a bunch of untreated water during a batch sparge isn't good either.

Probably the biggest factor: Batch sparging is certainly more forgiving on what kind of equip. you're using. A lot of guys here use manifolds and braids in a cooler - wouldn't work so well with fly sparging.

I think either will work fine as long as they decently cover the floor area of the MLT. My braid seemed to work really well. My last cooler had a combo false bottom/manifold.

All I can say is I can do either with my setup (keg w/ false bottom) and I've tried both. It's very doubtful I'll ever bother fly sparging again. I LIKE batch sparging and it works.

Ales or lagers ? Maybe I'll try it on my next batch.

 

[brewman !]

you don't have to buy or build the tricky sparge arm

Just use a piece of perforated tinfoil and gently run the sparge water onto it.

 

[ayrton]

Just use a piece of perforated tinfoil and gently run the sparge water onto it.

Sorry, I don't have the time for that.

 

[ayrton]

If it tastes good when I'm done, to hell with efficiency.

If my efficiency is good when I'm done, to hell with taste.

 

[the_bird]

It's not that I couldn't handle fly sparging, or that I think it's really difficult, or some insurmountable challenge - but there's no way to argue that batch sparging is more difficult. There are simply far fewer variables to work with.

Doesn't mean that fly spargers need to "come over to the dark side" - hell, I'm thinking about trying to fly sparge at some point for the hell of it - but the simple fact that you need to think about things like adding more heat to the HLT and treating the water with gypsum and making devices out of tinfoil means that there is more going on, more stuff to think about. Doesn't make it bad, but I don't see any argument for fly sparging being SIMPLER.

 

[voodoochild7]

So what is dead space now and how do I account for it?

 

[Orfy]

Dead space is the area at the bottom that you can not drain.

Account for it? Use more sparge water and try to keep the manifold/pick up as low as possible.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

I use brewsmith for all my calculations. It tells me how much water to add at each step and hasn't failed me yet. I set my brewhouse efficiency at 70% and often get just above what the program calculated for 70% efficiency brews.

I'm not an efficiency nut. I don't care if I have to use a little extra grain to compensate for not having an 87% eff.

If it tastes good when I'm done, to hell with efficiency.

Ah, I see. You really are taking some measurements to tell. It just sounded like you weren't.

No more hand calculation by me, either. I let BeerSmith do all the work.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Brewman, I get what you're saying. There's no black/white answer with this one. Just do what works for you. It doesn't have to be a religious discussion.

BTW - I meant I can do (and have done) both fly or batch sparging with my system.

 

[Todd]

I didn't say it didn't work and I understand stand that people like it.

I'm not trying to persuade people to do one or the other. I don't care what people do. I want to understand the claims behind each method. For batch sparging I hear things like simpler, faster, easier, etc. I don't understand those claims ! Is it really simpler ? Is it really faster ? Yes, I am challenging the homebrew collective wisdom !

I'll repeat the question: what makes batch sparging faster or easier ? When I look at the batch sparging process, I don't think it would be <much> faster and I certainly don't think it would be less work. So please tell me where I am wrong.

For me it was cheap and easy to do batch sparge. I think I spent about $15 total and I was comfortable doing it. I don't think I have any other reason. Do I need one?

I didn't want to deal with sparge arms, or water level or any of that stuff.

 

[sause]

First off man you are pissing some people off here. Don't ask a question, and then try to belittle people for answering your question. I'm not going to argue about which one is better, that has been said that it is a perefrence. Batch sparge is faster because you don't have to worry about channeling as much as you do with fly. Channeling makes more water to flow through a certain part of the grain bed than an other and when you are trying to extract sugers out of all the grain these will kill your effort. Channeling with fly will kill your efficiency, batch gets around this with stirring. The stirring will also force the new sparge water into the grains and there fore force sugars out. Letting it sit is just there to help settle the grain bed for filtering. When people say easier they mean the same way that all grain is harder than extract. In all grain you just have more things to worry about same holds true in batch vs fly. As for the compacted grain bed I never had any trouble with batch. In this case channeling helps with batch, we drain so fast that channel will occur, these channels will force the husks to the side and not allow a stuck sparge, and since water will find it way to level we don't need to worry about leaving a bunch in the mash tun.

To let you know my next system will be set up to fly so I'm on the fly boat but I see why people batch. And if your system is set up for fly it can also do batch.

 

[brewman !]

First off man you are pissing some people off here. Don't ask a question, and then try to belittle people for answering your question.

Sorry for debating the question of batch versus fly ! But some of the replies here are not part of that debate, they are commentary on what people use. That's fine in another post, but in this post I wanted to examine some of the facts regarding the two processes.

People constantly throw around batch is better this and fly is better that and I think this discussion is showing us that it isn't nearly like that. Half the reasons given here are BS.

It isn't about being right or wrong or convincing someone to use something else. Its about getting the facts straight. Understand ?

At one point in time everyone thought fly sparging was THE only way. That was obviously WRONG. What other misconceptions do we have about sparging ?

I'll drop it.

 

[brewman !]

Last comment.

but the simple fact that you need to think about things like adding more heat to the HLT

The HLT sits for about the same time whether batch or fly sparging, so this is irrelevant.

and treating the water with gypsum

Good idea either way. Read Dave Miller.

and making devices out of tinfoil

Take a piece of tinfoil 6x10, for my MLT anyway. Take a pin and poke some holes in it. When you are ready to sparge, lay it on the grain bed. No big deal. At the end of the mash, wash it and put it in the MLT for use next time.

means that there is more going on, more stuff to think about. Doesn't make it bad, but I don't see any argument for fly sparging being SIMPLER.

No stirring, no recirculating, nothing. Just add water. How hard is that ?

The REAL issue for me with batch sparging is the quality of the product. I suspect that fly sparging delivers a cleaner wort due to better bed filtering and I wonder about diluting the mash and extracting tannins with batch sparging. But we'll leave those issues undiscussed .

It strikes me as odd that we could have two processes so different as batch and fly sparging and that we would get exactly the same results from both.

 

[sause]

Sorry for debating the question of batch versus fly.

That wasn't your question.

But people throw around batch is better this and fly is better that and I think this discussion is showing us that it isn't nearly like that. Half the reasons given here are BS.

No all the reasons talked about here have valid points its just that you are to thick skulled to listen to them.

It isn't about being right or wrong or convincing someone to use something else. Its about getting the facts straight. Understand ?

WOW!! You might actually gotten something from this 40+ post thread. By the way you are a hypocrite, you were the one blasting holes into batch sparging and then you say this?

At one point in time everyone thought fly sparging was THE only way. That was obviously WRONG. What other misconceptions do we have about sparging ?

Fly was the only way to do it years ago. Batch sparging just came on to the scene within 5 years.

 

[Blktre]

This thread cracks me up.......There are a few well informed posts here. But for the record, how many of you guys posting on this subject have mastered both techniques? And trying something once or twice isnt mastering. Id be interested in that. Because there are alot of uninformed generic typical forum statements thruout this thread. Things like fly sparging takes more equipment, time, for the same or less eff. Or things like the grainbed needs to be stirred between batch sparges. This stuff sounds like things that have been read and carried over from hearsay w/o any practical experience...

 

[Orfy]

And another thing............


Sorry just thought I'd try and be the last poster before this gets closed.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

And another thing............


Sorry just thoughte I'd try and be the last poster before this gets closed.

C'mon orfy, this party's just getting started.

 

[olllllo]

This thread cracks me up.......There are a few well informed posts here. But for the record, how many of you guys posting on this subject have mastered both techniques? And trying something once or twice isnt mastering. Id be interested in that. Because there are alot of uninformed generic typical forum statements thruout this thread. Things like fly sparging takes more equipment, time, for the same or less eff. Or things like the grainbed needs to be stirred between batch sparges. This stuff sounds like things that have been read and carried over from hearsay w/o any practical experience...

That some have not mastered (IYO) and found a method that they find to be easy and fast, should those people not have an opinion?

Rhetorical.

 

[olllllo]

Full disclosure:

I've done neither, but I can see argument for argument sake here.

 

[FlyGuy]

This thread cracks me up.......There are a few well informed posts here. But for the record, how many of you guys posting on this subject have mastered both techniques? And trying something once or twice isnt mastering. Id be interested in that. Because there are alot of uninformed generic typical forum statements thruout this thread. Things like fly sparging takes more equipment, time, for the same or less eff. Or things like the grainbed needs to be stirred between batch sparges. This stuff sounds like things that have been read and carried over from hearsay w/o any practical experience...

Yep, I have to agree.

After reading this entire post, I still don't see many clear reasons why batch sparging is necessarily better than fly sparging. I am actually starting to question some of these things that I assumed were true from reading books. I think what would help best is to hear from people that have first-hand experience with BOTH techniques. It is really hard to provide a good answer to this question based on only knowing one or the other. Can some of the more senior brewers on this site who are more likely to have experience with both methods chime in???